So, I forgot to address Corflu's point about throwing the plan out the window...

Anyway, the detective came out. Now we will either lynch him, or he will be protected by the doc. Since we know who the detective is (and if he remains alive), we do not need to tell him to investigate. However, if we say, "investigate Biscuit" and Biscuit is a townie, the mafia will simply kill him in the night kill. If we allow the detective to do his own investigating, the mafia won't necessarily target the possible innocent that he uncovers. Right?

Only mafia would want a list, so that they know who to target.

Neb

The doc does no know which one to protect though. However that is not as important as who to investigate. I do not understand why you say there is no need to investigate Biscuit. Half the people follow his lead. Is that lead right or is it wrong? I think right but if wrong we are totally screwed up.

Mafia will not know who to kill until after he is investigated. If he is town, then they have to pick between him and the hopefully alive detective. If he is mafia we have a huge advantage and many of the posts contrary to his views make sense.

Many people have advocated a list. I am not as up on the list as I am on a plan. If there is no plan then we are doing random events. And that is certain doom.

as you said about me last game neb, you just seem SOOO mafialike to me, and all the bouncing around you are doing does NOT seem pro-town, yes you are arguing in town's favor but you are all over the place seemingly creating confusion.

Sage the more you post the more convinced I become you are the right vote, if you're not I'm sorry we'll make it up tomorrow. I'm all for conversation that is what this game is all about right? Drool seems to be the popular word in this game for confusion, and wading through it all I can only go with a feeling of where confusion is created where stated 'he's doing this because his buddies are doing that' 'it could be this or if not it must be that'. A riddle inside a riddle or a confusion inside a confusion.

Fact is the game doesn't progress unless we start somewhere, last game when it seemed my arguements were futile I relinquished and voted myself to end the debauchery and was my hopes that in my demise the town would benefit for it. Unfortunately it was a big ruse orchestrated by the bouncy neb who is playing generally the same game this time. Even though he has had his vote on you a few times sage neb seems to be standing by you and I would assume the bounciness is meant to deflect blame on himself if we get you. Look at it this way, somebody has to die, if you do turn out town your death will help the town flush out the mafia quicker, worth it wouldn't you say?

Oh well this is all speculation and we can start it all over again tomorrow.

Hmm, still not 7 against me. I am off to bed alive for now. Again Sage continues with his attempts to confuse and distract. I certainly do not consider the posts 'drool' - just Sage's and mine for the most part. No matter what I say, Sage will come up with a counter argument, except for one. I will continue to point out how manipulative and calculating Sage is at this game.

The only thing he can really counter with is that I might be sacrificed because am the 'least valuable mafia'. Well, I certainly do not think that would be true and anyone who reads my posts and sees my actions should easily see through that argument. Still, that does not 'prove' I am not mafia. As I have been saying all along, however, is that it hurts Sage's credibility. All things being equal, it just seems logical to take out Sage.

Instead of trying to confuse the issue farthur, I concentrate on the future. I say we know of 3 mafia - Sage, Bud, Coopels. Should Bud change his vote to Sage, when you see that Sage is indeed Mafia, I will have to say that I was wrong about Bud. Until the day ends and you all know the truth, however, Bud's actions will have to remain suspect. Coopels, now, has consistently and seemlessly been Sage's ally. Should I get to end this day and prevent Sage from continuing to confuse all of you, I advise that you off Sage in the night and vote Coopels ASAP before they have a chance to confuse matters farthur.

Well, if Sage IS the detective, there is no need to investigate The Biscuit, is there? He's made his ties to moss pretty clear, as has tarim. If they are townies, and moss is mafia, Biscuit and tarim are playing the worst ever.

If Sage is mafia, then Biscuit seems pretty clear to me.

However, I am not saying 'do not investigate Biscuit.'

I am saying that we cannot have a list telling the detective who to investigate! The detective may investigate Biscuit if he wants, but it will be his own choice! Gambling that the doc will protect the right person is a big gamble indeed. Not one I'm willing to take. I'd rather go under the assumption that the detective will be safe as long as the doc is alive. Sure, we may lose a townie each night, but the detective will give us better guidance on who to go after. You can see how great we are at sniffing out the mafia right now...

Neb

as I said earlier I don't think 'a list' is the right way to go. We have to hope the detective is smart enough to do what is right and now he doesn't have to stay in hiding, IF he stays alive he can simply announce innocent or guilty on who he investigated. I do believe we can all post who we would LIKE to have investigated and the detective may use some thoughts on his choice.

The doc however has now become the more important role don't you think? We best hope the doc plays smart and trips the mafia.

The masons would help us narrow it down, I don't see the advantage of them staying hidden day 2, the mafia knows who all the town people are so wouldn't it help the town a little knowing who 2 are for sure? The masons have no other special roles so why not confirm each other.

The vigilante however has to be careful, and silent! Please be as sure as you can before using your knife, killing another townie certainly wouldn't help us.

"No matter what I say, Sage will come up with a counter argument, except for one. I will continue to point out how manipulative and calculating Sage is at this game."

That's because there is no counterpoint! The reason there's no counterpoint is because that isn't a point. You point out that I'm manipulative and calculating when I'm mafia...who isn't? Just because I'm a good mafia DOESN'T mean I can't be town.

Renno, I agree that proving myself town will help the town...be it post-mortum or while I'm still alive. However, me being still alive will help the town MORE than me dying, so I'm fighting. The fact that you'd be willing to sacrifice the detective to "get information" is odd...sure, consider it a worst case scenario, but you're basically telling me to lay down and die...not a good thing for the town!

Moss...please point out an instance where I'm trying to confuse or distract anyone. It's mostly people on YOUR side of the fence who consider this whole debate to be less that crucial *cough*Sanshiro*cough*. I don't believe I've tried to distract from this debate...as soon as you claimed, I knew you were mafia. And I certainly don't see where I've tried to be confusing. Have I not expressed my points in a clear, concise manner?

Renno! For the same reason that the doc has become the most important role, the masons need to stay hidden! They only come out if they are about to be lynched. The mafia knows who the townies are...in that group is the doctor. Out of 10 unknown townies, 1 is doc. The mafia has a 10% chance to hit him. If the masons come out, the mafia now has a 12.5% chance to hit the doc. Throw the vigilante into that calculation, and the mafia's chances of hitting a special role go up 5%. Small, maybe, but big enough to keep the masons hidden, I say.

Neb

ok you got a point there

see neb that's what's bugging me about you, sometimes you come off SO pro-town, then next post is all confusion. I'm gonna suggest to mog he take your hovercloud away and give you a beachball to bounce around on

What about Neb's post was confusing? It's simple math: the mafia have a higher chance of getting our doctor (and, after the doctor, the detective if I'm still alive) if the masons come out.

Sage...you wrote this right after your detective claim...

Changing vote to Biscuit.

You don't keep your vote on somebody after they claim detective, you just don't. If I'm not the real detective, I'll get counterclaimed. Until then, why don't you accept what I'm saying before the mafia pile on me and lynch me REGARDLESS of just having come out as detective?

They could do it, you know. Unvote, take time for the situation to unfold completely. Keeping your vote on the detective is irresponsible at best and mafia behavior at worst.


In this post, you state..."If I'm not the real detective, I'll get counterclaimed..."

Did the invincible Sage slip up? Please reply to this...

Neb

I said he's got a point there, and following post I meant his last post was so pro-town, it has been other posts I've read that leads to confusion. Back n forth, back n forth...sometimes too much talk leads to too much suspicion, I think that's what got me lynched last game, I just alked too much

as you and neb are doing this game

we could make a mistake yes...we could make a mistake voting moss, I flipped a coin last night and a coin toss is no good if you keep flipping it

Neb, I said that because it was particularly ridiculous that he was SURE I was mafia despite the fact I was uncontested. Once mwmoss counterclaimed, there was room for him to be skeptical. The fact that he was already acting like I was mafia, despite no counterclaim, suggests he KNEW I was going to get counterclaimed: as he would were he mafia, planning for moss to counterclaim me.

Why else would he keep his vote on me? He'd look ridiculous keeping his vote on a detective who hadn't been counterclaimed. This is another example of Biscuit's odd appearance of having foreknowledge that the rest of us lack.

Renno: a coin toss is a ridiculous method of deciding these things. It's another form of using a random number generator to decide our lynch. Do you honestly find both me and moss to be equally convincing??

Good. Lots of posting, good thing. And I'm voting mwmoss. Sage's right. He's coming up with new things while mwmoss isn't contributing much.

As for me not posting: I post plenty. I just sleep 8 hours and go to school for seven (inc. travel), plus I have two sisters, so I can't post as much as I'd like.

As for my math, I copied the fact that Sage was one from lynch from a previous post which was probably out of date when I read it, so, yeah, the numbers were probably wrong.

3 more pages... wow... well done

Anyhow, I just read all the posts and understood most of them... I think. I now believe wmwuss less than before. His last posts seem somewhat forced/contrived. I must give him credit though for facing up quite well to the mighty Sage in this.

Sage mate, it's not that I don't trust you, or 'do not trust anything you say'. It's that I have high regard for your creativity and language skills and thus am never really sure of your intentions. So I take the approach of better safe than sorry.

I have allowed myself to get swayed in this argument by the protagonists and vote, which is wrong. I am even more wrong that I allowed Oblivion's befuddled mind, which shouldn't have surprised me from the start, to leave us all hanging and arguing far too long, because he has excuses for not making the story move forward. I'm sorry Oblivion that you are hurt, a neck injury can be a nasty thing and I hope you get well soon, but I feel that a deadline is a must, a majority vote for one person is not a must and that the whole plot needs to move forward... pronto! This is getting boring.

@Corflu - you only raise my ire when you sometimes lapse into one of your Appalachian blue people logic, in this mafia game or elsewhere. I can spot you there and don't like it as I feel it's like some voodoo compulsion working on you.

The one thing that caught my eye was Neb's call to vote for Biscuit. I didn't like his style from the start. Biscuit's that is. It's not the calm calculated Biscuit I think he is. Just too much effort into convincing us. While I think that we could be wrong on the Sage/wmwuss vote, we will be pretty safe on the Biscuit vote. I'm changing mine!

BTW, notice Renno... that crafty little bugger. Only a couple of smirking lines here and there and he thinks he's off the hook?!

Ohh,... and I nearly forgot...

Sage, are YOU Mr.Fishy?!



Don't you just love those double entendres?!...

I Concede.

Deadline 8 o'clock pm New York time..

Neb: You say "I am saying that we cannot have a list telling the detective who to investigate!"

Maybe I missed how this works and that is right in this situation. We DID want to say who the detective was investigating at the start. That way if they said nothing then we knew the person being investigated was fine and they did not have to reveal themselves.

However is what you are saying NOW is that we are sure the detective is Sage or mwmoss, so they can investigate whomever they want and then just say it publically since everyone will know who they are?

I can go with that logic if we all know who the detective is anyway and keep the person to ionvestigate silent. THough I still want to know on Biscuit. If Sage is the detective Biscuit can be mafia, or he can be a townie with a wrong conclusion. Sorry to be so unwavering here, but I think he is a key player and knowing his true colors (Appalacian Blue as Sanshiro calls it!?) will be worthwhile.

Sage- You want to know why I am voting against you.

Not an easy question to answer really.

My last post was: Posted : Monday, January 29, 2007 - 20:13.

At the time, the initial claim by you to be the detective and the counter-claim by mwmoss had just happened, and both of you had only made 1 or 2 posts before I made mine.
And there had also been only 2 or 3 others posting on the issue at the time. So I looked at what you said, what mwmoss said, and the other comments that had been made about it.

I was actually leaning toward believing you were the detective and voting for mwmoss, but then you pointed out how you spelled out DETECTIVE in a post and it just struck me as too pre-planned, too over-the-top to be believable. That is why I voted for you.

I was only on briefly yesterday morning to get that training game out of the way, and admittedly didn't take the time to go through the posts here.

Now that I've had two days to think about it, and have actually been able to read everyones thoughts on the matter, along with mwmoss's 'evidence' against you, and your 'evidence' against him, I think you do actually make a much better case than he does. But at the same time, I think your probably more cunning and able to better sway the audience than he is.

So where I was 2 days ago, about 65% sure you were mafia, now I'm at a total loss and agree with Renno. I'm about 50% either way and could just flip a coin. I just don't know anymore. I'm going to unvote for now and take a few more hours to think about it/re-read the posts again before I come back and cast my final vote.

I do not want to be like Neb and have 20 votes for day 1. Talk about drool!

I understand chunky not voting, but why hasn't gueritol voted? He WAS participating, even if it wasn't huge contributions and had 2 votes prior, now has none.

And Sanshiro...why are you dodging voting for either Sage or mwmoss? I don't see the help in voting for Biscuit...that can be addressed tomorrow depending on the outcome of this issue. But this issue needs to be resolved first.

I will post again later with my final thoughts and final vote. Maybe some more posts by others before then will help me decide.