This is great. You guys wrote 4 pages of drivel why I slept. I read these pages and a few things emerged;

1. When encountered with SO much new analysis I lost the thread of who was accusing who of what. While it's obvious that Sage and mwmoss are both claiming to be detective and one of them is lying I can finally see the emergence of 'a plan'. I objected to the previous plan because I did not believe in it or people's ability to execute it. However, a plan that deals with the results of the Sage/mwmoss voting is much more to my liking. Less variables and it also ensures of finally forming some sort of team effort. Plans prior to the first vote are useless.

2. I think that the whole vote for/against Sage has nothing to do with what he said. At least for the townies, the vote for/against Sage are based purely on our encounters with him and our relations with him. I know that it's not the purpose of this game to psychologically analyse anyone, but Sage in his 'uniqueness' has brought this on himself.

3. Neb - it's never going to be a 7-8 vote because some people don't think much of the Sage/mwmoss debate.

4. I think Corflu has changed his posts style after I called him out and now is far more calm than before. Maybe he just regained control of himself. Biscuit is suspicious, trying just too hard to push the Sage vote and if according to him "there was no need for a counter-claim by the mafia" than mwmoss is the mafia and Biscuit is just protecting him.

5. I also don't buy those claims by people who were busy at work, like Bud_C. You did work last game too, didn't you?! and posted much more. Same thing for Renno.

6. Oblivion - While all these posts are piling up and it's great to see such a thriving interest in the game... can we have a deadline for the first day vote? I think this will add some directional pressure on one vote or another and progress the story. Unless of course you didn't write a decent story and then I suggest we lynch Oblivion... for real!

Ok, something else.
I'm normally inclined to post my view before going to the vote thread and voting/ changing my vote, as I'd say we all are. However when an injustice can be seen then time becomes of the essence.

After Sage posts the first time saying he's the Detective, mwmoss reads this and changes his vote to Sage at 16:30 hours.
He then goes on the forum to get his side out in 3 consecutive posts starting at 16:41 hours and asking us to read on after the first post.

I think this is the behaviour of an outraged Detective, a mafia would have typed the counterclaim first and then voted (or possibly even forgotten to vote *ahem*).

Exactly Tarim. (And good morning all.) I am posting specifically because Neb asked me too. I posted so quickly before because once I made my decision to reveal myself, I wanted to act as fast as possible. The only reason the post was at 16:41 insead of 16:30.01 was because it takes time to type! All those posts were very stream of conciousness!

There is really no reason for me to post. The more people have to read, the less they use logic and instead go with emotions. Sage is a master at twisting words and actions and sounding very very convincing. There is no way I can compete with him in a posting war. As I said, anything Sage or I had to say since I counter-claimed him cannot be trusted. I pointed that out and hoped Sage would be hampered. You can't twist what is not there.

Sanchiro, it is not Sage's uniquiness that brought this on him. I disagree with whoever said I should not have counter-claimed. In either case, Sage will be dead. As was pointed out, one Mafia on night one for sure. I also hope that enough people will realize what a cunning player he is and that he will be lynched, proving my claims in the most beneficial. Sage had this planned from the begining, of course. Maybe not the timing, but the actions. It is certainly his 'style' to have a plan to both try and save himself and get me out in the open. The one thing you can count on with Sage is that there is always something else going on.

Now, on to the future phases of the game. You will all know Sage is mafia soon enough. So, starting from there, this means that two of the people currently voting for me are mafia - so Coflu, Coopels, and Bud_Chevy. Those are the easy ones. 3 lynches, two mafia. I would also say one mafia is voting for Sage. What great cover. On day two he will be able to say that he couldn't be mafia because wouldn't it be obvious that he would have been voting for me if he were mafia. So, voting for Sage right now are Buscuit, Tarim, Renno, (me), and Wasteland.

Well, not sure if that is what you wanted Neb, or anyone else, but there it is.

Okay, so night goes by and nothing changes in the votes. I think I've been overanalyzing this whole thing. Sage's reaction was a typical mafia last-ditch effort...no matter how convincing his arguements are.

So, Sage it is.

Vigilante, make sure you phrase your night-action such that if Sage is the doc, you kill moss, and if Sage is mafia, you don't do anything. We can wait for moss to confirm more mafia.

Doc, protect moss only if Sage is mafia. Yes, this will leave the rest of us townies up for a kill, but we are a better option that the detective.

Sage. mwmoss. Well played.

Neb

Yet more humor! kong, who hasn't said one single word worthy of anything, and must be oblivious to this game, has now voted for me!

Oh boy, this keeps getting better and better...oh, and darkguy hasn't voted...big shocker there!

I feel kong is trying to set himself up for a day 2 lynching of me...very mafia-like. At this point kong, you should pick a side...Sage or moss. Anyone who doesn't vote or votes for a different person is just as suspicious as someone who votes for the wrong person.

Neb

It wasn't a mafia last ditch effort. It was a DETECTIVE last ditch effort.

Can you guys really not see why a four-player mafia would sacrifice mwmoss in order to take out a Sage-detective? When I claimed, I knew that there was a huge chance of getting counterclaimed. If I were mafia, I would have suggested a similar sacrifice!

Neb...you've played with me as mafia before. I was only at 5 votes out of a needed 8. If all I had to do was escape lynch, don't you think I could have wheedled my way out of it? Instead, I took this action, and now we have one...possibly two mafia who we can kill. True, we can get them regardless of whether or not I die...but it'd be so much better for the town if the detective lived.

Only you, Neb, would vote for someone because of their convincing arguments

And how does moss seem like an enraged detective? He's been completely calm and calculating this whole time. I'M the frustrated one.

Anyhow, I'm done. I've fought enough for you guys, and you never seem to appreciate it. I'll take my "worthless townie" label that a couple of you have been throwing around and leave you guys on your own.

I now understand why people have voted for themselves in the past. I won't, because it'd be hypocritical, and I said only mafia would ever vote for themselves (Because it hurts the town)...but I understand now.

Do you guys REALLY think I acted like a detective all game JUST IN CASE I ever needed to fake-claim?

It was my acting different that almost got me lynched. A mafia member only does things that help their survival. My acting like a detective, ironically, has HURT my chance of survival. Why wouldn't I just act like I normally do?

Answer that question satisfactorily, and I'll lay down and die.

LOL @ Sage. Actually the last two times people that voted for themselves turned out to be townies and this time you bring this debate up now trying to distort the past? I think your premise has been wrong all along, townies do sacrifice themselves because they want to show unity. Mafia try harder to survive, like you are doing.

I also agree with Neb. kong comes online, doesn't post, votes for neither Sage or mwmoss. Very suspicious and not helpful to the townies at all. He's just not participating in this game.

I agree on the kong thing, it's not the right way to handle things, but I assume that kong is just a useless Townie. Last game he did not (eventually) play, because I wouldn't let him be mafia. It was either I'm mafia or I'm not playing. I think he's not mafia now too, because we would have seen far more activity from this enthusiastic kid. Thus I think that kong doesn't warrant any vote at the moment. If he is mafia, then we are lucky and should concentrate on the other suspects.

However, I now suspect Biscuit all too much. Biscuit seems to go out of his way to prove Sage is mafia. Very unlike Biscuit, unless he sees Sage is the biggest, baddest threat there is to the townies. No one trusts Sage anymore so even if he is mafia, I wouldn't put too much effort or weight on his arguments. He's sort of 'burnt out', like an exposed spy or undercover cop.

I also wholeheartedly disagree on your premise Biscuit, that "townies do sacrifice themselves because they want to show unity". I do not believe that a single townie will sacrifice himself to show unity. It's usually done out of frustration, from one's inability to convince others in his arguments or innocence.

Here's my own recipe for this coming end of day and night:
>Detective - investigate Biscuit. I can live perfectly happy not knowing (for now) the exact nature of Sage and mwmoss.
>Doctor - protect anyone you want, except the MIAs, i.e. Chunky.
>Vigilante - save your kill. It'll be a waste of a shot now with so much mist and lies. Save it till the next day so we're more clear on the guilty parties.
>Voting - there's no need for an 8 majority vote on one person. We need 8 votes altogether and then the person with the highest number of votes gets lynched. We need a deadline from Oblivion. Where's that malingering tart?

Dam...now Sage has me turned around again...

mwmoss it is!

Either way, we are learning a great deal about the mafia in this discussion. Sage has just made better arguements than moss...therefore he gets my non-vote. Maybe he is mafia, but he's dam good at convincing me...of course, I was able to snow him over last game too...maybe we just know each other's buttons to push too well. And maybe I have a soft spot for my fellow CoCs. All this ranting is now leading me to believe that I cannot be impartial to this vote. I'm voting mwmoss again, but I'm very unsure...part of me hopes Sage wouldn't be able to pull one over on me.

Now I'm frustrated...and sad...dam you Sage!

Sanshiro, we MUST have a lynch today. We cannot let both moss and Sage live or we lose our detective in the nightkill anyway. Please pick a side and vote.

Neb

I'm more convinced now that Mwmoss is the mafia. Both Tarim and Biscuit show unwaivering support for him while trying to pick apart Sage. Biscuit would usually follow his own reasoning to a conclusion and in my opinion he hasn't done that here except for continually stating that Sage is fooling us. Instead it seems that he has taken a result (Sage is mafia) and is semingly trying to push that result to the end.

I just don't like how those two seem to have no qualms about mwmoss being the detective. It makes sense in mwmoss' case, (of course since he claimed it) but the other two? It just doesn't seem natural to have that kind of conviction without some sort of prior knowledge such as what the mafia would know. Because of that if i'm right about Sage, then i would ask Sage to investigate Biscuit because he is high on my list of supects currently.

Even if Sage is mafia and has half of us fooled, i'm at least satisfied that he will probably die at night for any possible deception by the vigilante's kill. But Neb is right, we have to resolve this detective issue today since we can't let it go into the night if we want the doctor to protect the detective. I just hope we get it right.

I just counted the votes:
6 for moss
5 for sage
2 no votes
and sanshiro flying around like a blind bat voting for corflu??? How are you helping solve the current issue sans? And the 2 no votes, dark and gueritol.. again how are you helping us win...

I think that moss is our guy and if we're wrong then we take out sage in the night kill and the mafia lose their most valuable asset. I don't think that they would be willing to agree to a plan that would sacrifice him in a effort to get the detective out who would then be protected by the doc.
Moss's counter claim allows the mafia to sacrifice one of their players while narrowing down the list of townines to take out and keeping the doc busy, since they know who the real detective is.

Coopels...you are acting strangely also, and not helping me trust Sage. Why would you tell the detective (Sage) to investigate Biscuit? The town no longer has the ability to form a list and have the detective follow it...throw that plan out the window!

The detective will now just investigate whoever he wants to as he pleases. He will then come back the next day and tell us guilty or innocent. This way the mafia will not be able to night kill the person that Sage is investigating.

And the town continues to drool...

Neb

Well Neb, you smoked out 2 more Mafia. Of the ones I named as possible before, I would now have to say it is certain Coopels and Bud are mafia. It is well worth my sacrifice to get 3 mafia. I urge everyone to go back and look at my posts. All of Sage's you will of course have to discount. His game from the begining was to get the Detective out in the open and he has. After all this is SAGE we are talking about. Lets see, a plan to sort of act like the detective and leave a clue that he would pretty much have to point out himself as proof. Confidence that he can persuade others to believe him, especially when he can coach his friends behind the scenes. It doesn't matter if he claims first like this or, if I had found a mafia and declared, HE could then counter claim and expect there to be enough confusion that some of his buds make it through the crossfire and get enough of us to win.

I do think he forgot about the vigilante, though. He was forced to initiate his plan early because he had 5 votes on him. The only real question in my mind is if Tarim or Buscuit are mafia. Never forget that the mafia are in constant contact in the background. The seemlessness of Coopels, Bud, and Sages postings seem obvious to me. Again, it is entirely concievable, by many people own admission, that Sage could some up with a scheme like this. I do think I surprised him by counter claiming so early and by not doing anything but being confident in my own statements and actions. The truth is a powerful weapon, and I have used it. Whether or not I live to see the next day, I have done my job by finding 3 mafia, Sage, Bud, and Coopels.

And Sanchiro, Bud is correct in one thing. This day has gone on long enough. You need to vote, delay helps the mafia. As do Darkguy and Gueritol. The longer this day goes on, the more Sage can direct his buddies and muddy the waters. The key for the town now is to determine who the OTHER mafia might be. If there are 7 votes against me when I get home tonight and can check the boards, I will end the day myself rather than allow them to continue to obfuscate the mater.

You are all too easily swayed by Sage. Sage will turn out to be mafia, we will have lost our detective and I'll probably get killed by mafia tonight. At least you can lynch him on Day 2. I would not even encourage the vigilante to waste his one and only shot on Sage since you'll know he's mafia will have an easy lynching party on Day 2.

I don't know how else to make it clear to everyone with my logic here. Sage was under pressure. Declaring detective is one thing and he may have been, but even then I doubted it. But having a counter-claim is very unusual this early. mwmoss would have to be telling the truth and because he isn't as eloquent as Sage or as deceitful or in the same clan, you are all quick to suspect someone else.

I agree we need to lynch a person soon, but it needs to be Sage (mafia) and we need to keep our detective (mwmoss) alive. Gut instinct drove me to Sage, his and mwmoss's posts have convinced me it is Sage.

Not sure if I'll be around next day and as this one is about to end, I'll do like I've done before and post my final thoughts about who may be who.

Townie:
darkguy00000 – coherent and helpful
Nebuchadnezer – actually trying hard, but confused
Renno - good posts, seems honest
mwmoss - detective
tarim - gut feeling
The Biscuit - because I'm hardly ever mafia...lol

Mafia:
Sage - Well, it's obvious to me. He was about to get lynched and tried hard to save himself and may have succeeded.
kong - Very suspicious with his voting and lack of posting as Neb pointed out earlier

Unsure:
Coopels – Better than most at playing, but acting strangely.
Chunky50 – Not posting
Corflu - good posts, but conspicuously absent on the detective debate (unlike him)
Gueritol – lack of posting is suspicious
Sanshiro Sugata – not especially helpful as a townie
Bud_Chevy – i think townie, but not sure
Wasteland – not convinced either way

Just read mwmoss's post after I was busy posting. And yet here's another townie is offering to lynch himself over the frustration of trying to convince others he's townie, just like what happened in the last two games.

*sigh*

I just really wanted the townies to win one, but they seem intent of making it difficult for them every step of the way. Sage has handed us an easy mafia kill on a silver platter, and again we are killing the wrong person, because why? You believe Sage? Sage ONLY came out with the detective claim when there was a push to lynch him. A normal very mafia thing to do. If he was a townie, the other mafia would have voted him right off and we wouldn't know who the other 4 are still. Counter-claiming means one mafia is going to die. Mafia would have had no need to offer up one of themselves this early. Therefore, it cannot me mwmoss. It has to be Sage. I'm very positive about that! It both satifies my gut instinct and has some solid logic behind it.

OK...

Because Neb asked that I join one vote or another and despite Biscuit's earlier and extremely suspicious arguments AND Corlfu's zigzaging post style which makes me suspect him, I will join the vote with another vote.

I also think that Bud_C is correct in a small way that my vote (for Corflu) doesn't help get things moving ...HOWEVER...Mr.Bud_C, the rules of the game state that there's only a need for a majority of people to vote... for anyone. That means we only need 8 votes to finish the day. 8 votes altogether, not 8 votes for one person. Even if out of these 8 one person gets 4 votes, one person get 3 votes and one person gets 1 vote, that one person with most votes against him gets lynched! So you don't really need my vote to get things moving. You either don't understand the rules or are really keen to see someone lynched... whoever had more votes at the time you posted this?!


Finally, what convinced me this time is actually mwmoss' post. Not Biscuit's and not Coopels' posts. mwmoss sounded honest and if he got me fooled then I applaud his style.

Sorry Sage... you're IT!

@Neb: i was just saying investigating Biscuit (if mwmoss is the mafia) makes sense due to his constant support of him and truly i'd feel better to know who Biscuit is. I'm not suggesting a list at all, in fact i've thought that was a bad idea the entire game along with the plan.