Okay. I'm sticking with my vote this time. gueritol and dark need to place a vote. It really doesn't matter where, as I think one vote will be enough to swing one person one way or the other.

PLEASE VOTE!

Even if we make the wrong lynch, we are pretty sure to get 2 more mafia along with the lying one...it will be #4 that is hard to track down...

Neb

Sanshiro just always suspects me. I wouldn't be surprised if he voted for me in a game I wasn't even playing in.

I don't even really consider his vote a real vote because, like you pointed out, it's inconsistent with his other belief that Biscuit is mafia. I think his distrust of me is just overpowering his rational mind.

Well, its simple Coopels. You are mafia as is Bud. You both changed your votes off Sage and to me ASAP. Tarim wavered at first, but then realized I was telling the truth. Anything YOU have to say is bull and should be read that way.

Am I calm, cool, and collected? Yes, I guess I am. Now. I certainly was not when I saw what Sage had posted. But then, its easier for people to understand that when I am telling the truth. I had to make a decision. I did. I wasn't exactly calm then. I felt that it was WAY to dangerous to allow Sage to masquerade as the detective for even one day. Knowing who the mafia and townies are, he could easily stear any first day lynch to a townie. Also, we would be in exactly the same predicament we are in now, but on day two with two townies dead. Either way, Sage is gone. The voting patterns have clearly identified you as mafia. Once Sage is exposed, you and Bud will be the next two lynches. Why should I not remain calm? The WHOLE purpose of Sage's game is to cause discord and confusion. Bagging me or at the very least tying up the Doc is not to bad either should his ploy fail.

By remaining calm, telling the truth, and explaining what I am doing and why, I have done my best to combat him and you. If Buscuit and Tarim recognize that, well, I will be sorry when you guys off one of them in the night. If Sage were town, he would be dead right now, its that simple.

The whole premise you guys have that the mafia would 'sacrific' me just stinks as well. For one, I wouldn't do it! I am no ones puppet, for one. For two, I wan't on anyones list as either any particular townie OR mafia. The perfect position and exactly where the Detective SHOULD be. Or a well place mafia. There was absolutely no reason for me to counter claim Sage EXCEPT for those I have already stated.

But Sage says he has played 'differently'. Since when has he NOT? Either as townie or mafia, he ALWAYS has a plan. You have supported him beautifully, but your voting and words belie your true mafia affiliation. And in the VERY unlikely event that I am wrong about you two and you two are also just dedicated townie's, why not change to Sage? The problem is, SAGE is the one who is the master manipulator. SAGE is the one who is so convincing and cunniving. It is simply much more likely he is lying.

Umm... mwmoss, If you look i changed to not voting right away aftrer reading Sage's revelation. I didn't make up my mind for almost 6 hours after a page of posts by assorted people. i read all of those posts and arguements multiple times and decided as i have. I was very uncertain when i first voted for you, but as more and more people posted, i started having strong feelings that you are the mafia, not Sage. I may be wrong, but i'm more sure of Sage than of you.

Moss, If you are the detective then what's your real issue with Sage pretending to be the detective? You were in no real danger of being lynched until your counter claim and if you are the real detective you simply could have investigated sage tonight and come out tomorrow.. ?

Wow Bud, talk about a failure in logic! As well as a failure in reading! I would have to say its pretty clear. I am the detective, so as soon as Sage said he was, there really is no need to investigate him. Sure, I could investigate others, and still will if I live. But this little dust up we have had now would be TOMORROW and two town will be dead. This way at worst, 2 town and one mafia will be dead. Simple math. I also expected other mafia to reveal themselves, which you and Coopels now have. I point out that it is Coopels who has pushed the Biscuit/Tarim vs Bud/Coopels as mafia idea. Oh, maybe not directly, but by constantly attacking them and saying they are just against Sage because they are mafia is the same thing. Buscuit and Tarim have consistently and with very little fanfare have basically said that Sage's actions are why they think he is mafia. I have pointed out his manipulative ways. It is always to the mafia's advantage to cause disention and confusion. If you can get Darkguy to get off the fence and vote for me, I will finish the day to end your ongoing damage.

Oh, and my advice to the town should I fail in my task is to have the vigilante kill Sage, then vote to lynch Coopels ASAP. The longer you let them talk, the more likely they are to confuse the issue. Remeber this post when I am proven right.

Bud_Chevy, the real question is why would a mafia counter-claim when they would be safer to say nothing? Just a few mislynches from us townies and they would win without having to reveal themselves at all.

Also, while there is a some logic in not counter-claiming immediately, what would people think if he waits another day? And on day 2 Sage says "I investigated so-and-so and he is mafia (another townie)"... but then the real detective says, "Sage is an imposter, I investigated so-and-so and he in a townie/mafia". Now who are you more likely to believe on day2? Sage would have been more established as the detective by then and everyone would even be more swayed by Sage then and the townies lose the game quickly.

No, the real detective had to counter-claim immediately. This way regardless of who is swayed by the mafia (sage) and the real detective (mwmoss), at least the truth will be known, and the townies still have a figting chance. Losing the detective will make it real hard though, but at least we don't do two mislynches because of Sage on day 2.

Sage is real good as mafia, and he fools most of the people most of the time, he just doesn't fool me, not this time.

Lynch me tomorrow if i'm wrong about Sage, that's fine. I expected as much when i gave support to Sage and should he turn out to be mafia i have no doubts that i'm dead. Once i'm dead though people will hopefully listen to some of the things i've been saying. Otherwise the town will lose this game too. i actually had to go back and check my messeges to make sure i was a townie, that's how convincing you guys are being.

@mwmoss: I've been saying that Tarim and Biscuit are supicious because they never once have even allowed for the possiblity that you aren't the detective. That's just incredable that they have such conviction when the rest of us are only grasping at straws here. Unless they're trying to hide something and have knowledge we don't. If it wasn't for them i'd be inclined to believe you, but since they have acted thusly, i don't. Either way this vote goes, it'll be easier to figure this all out tomorrow i hope.

Oh, you guys are all better than I thought...man, I'm ready to jump back to voting Sage again...

Neb

Biscuit: “Bud_Chevy, the real question is why would a mafia counter-claim when they would be safer to say nothing? Just a few mislynches from us townies and they would win without having to reveal themselves at all.”

I agree now that a second day coming out party would be even more difficult to beleive but I disagree about a counter claim not being in the mafia's best interest. A mafia counter claim is exactly what I would do if I were mafia and had three others to hide within the group. It creates this turmoil that forces the doc to protect the real detective and divides the group into two sects. This in turn will allow the mafia to pick off everyone who ends up voting for the other person without drawing suspicion towards themselves.

Now, granted this is all based on the fact that we have the right guy

But even if were wrong, I still think we can turn this into an advantage for the town. Worst case; sage is mafia we lynch moss, vigilante kills sage, we are still even and then the masons come out together to allow the town to pick between the 10 that are left. Thats a 1 in 3 shot at another mafia member.

What if Oblivion made to detectives? He's a twisted individual...

Bud, your idea of mwmoss counterclaiming tomorrow was a bit off and didn't make much sense. A counterclaim had to be immediately.

The basis of your argument, moss, is that it wouldn't make sense for mafia to sacrifice one of their own at this point. I disagree. There is only one detective, and there is only one Sage. My past two games disregarded, I am a good townie, and would make a good detective. There are FOUR mafia, of whom I'm sure moss is one of the least experienced. It would be OVERWHELMINGLY in their interest to sacrifice moss in order to kill me.

Neb: I appreciate that you're keeping your vote on moss, despite your innate distrust of me. But I ask you to go back and reread everything. Most of the arguments against me lack substance, and merely play up fears based on "how good I am as mafia." Playing on fears is a mafia tactic. My case against Moss is based on logic, and I have the benefit of having claimed first.

Just because Biscuit is a smooth talker, don't let him fool you into thinking there's a case against me. All he's done is play on your fears.

The debate is very confusing. More than who is the detective, the question is who is voting and why. Neb seems to be leading and then waffling and then thinking over again. Coopels followed him almost instantly which is what got everyone worked up with my vote. Frankly I think that is ok, but others with the game think that says something.

Neb says “Okay. I'm sticking with my vote this time” the 90 minutes later says “I'm ready to jump back to voting Sage again..”

I posted my thoughts earlier and thought that with 2 of the 3 “vets” on mwmoss it made sense. Though Biscuit has a point. Why would mwmoss (if mafia) claim that he was the detective if Sage already announced that he was? There were many reasons listed afterwards as to why.

I was going to change votes, then thought to change back. Yet it seems doing so always gets people ready to acuse whether you are the first or the last one to change votes. As stated earlier damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

I am not sure which is which at this point, other than both will surely go one way or the other. Which really is a win for the town with the percentages in a 1:1 trade. So who the actual victim is not a large issue in numbers except I would like to save the real detective.

Something else I am reviewing and watching about Neb’s logic. He says "All thoughts of having an organized plan to follow have gone out the window. Nobody else should reveal their roles, since now the doc is tied up protecting the detective."

All of a sudden the plan we want to follow was tossed out? To me this created confusion in the town and wonders which direction to go. There are suspicions on Biscuit already and if he is mafia we will be in bad shape. Tarim and the other lemmings follow him. Which is a very good thing if he is a townie. I would rather we follow to our success than demise! I think we really need to know here.

Neb: Love your posts but not the logic. If Biscuit is townie we have to know. And you want to change the detective investigation. Then if Biscuit IS a townie and he is right about Sage, then you have been strongly deflecting to mwmoss. Only after his points did you start to waffle and change. We will see about Sage and Mwmoss, but you may need to be investigated more than others if mwmoss turns out to be the detective. For the record, I advocate to still investigate Biscuit, though Neb is high on my suspect list. I don’t think it is just an “oops” from a smart "townie".

Coopels: I think was swayed by Neb to go along with him on the vote. Though suspicious how fast he joined in the hunt I am not surprised by it.

Sanshiro: At the risk of further arousing his ire, he seems all over the place. I wonder who at this point he DOES trust since it is not Biscuit, Sage, me, Bud, Renno, or kong. It could be Neb and Coopels, but then he votes the opposite of what they recommend and supports Biscuit there! Unless I missed one that means he likes tarim, chunky, mwmoss(by default), darkguy00000, gueritol, and Wasteland. Largely the non-posters. Generating confusion as misguided or mafia?

The quiet guys still worry me. We can talk all day, and will pick off some innocents by mistake from our normal paranoia. I think there is a reason for the people that have been too quiet though. Not all, but probably most. Sage has been pretty vocal which he probably would not be if he was mafia and surely would be if he was wrongly accused. But he is clever.

Hmm...good analysis Corflu. And now I'm agreeing with Sanshiro.

We are being confused...and yes, in my own confusion, I'm causing more confusion...confused?

I think we need to just pick one and go with it. Let's just end this and find out who the mafia is. Otherwise we sit here and pick at this and then pick at that. Mafia has to be laughing their a$$es off at us. This happens every game...the townies talk themselves into a big ball of drool...and I've been a key contributor.

So...if I see someone at 7 votes, I may just tighten the noose. We need this to end...it is getting a bit ridiculous.

Neb

Not sure how you handle confusion Neb, but one thing is pretty clear. Once someone shines the spotlight on you, you quickly shine it back and attack. It may just be your logic, but there have been enough twists and turns for me to wonder.

I agree with sanshiro about the vigilante, wait until day 2.

As for the rest it's all drivel, you can argue/explain both sides every which way you can and we'll be here another week. I am beginning to become enlightened some on a couple of suspects but will keep my mouth shut until day 2. As for this sage/moss issue...it's a big mess, who's lying, who's conniving, who's supporting/ who's drooling. I could argue and layout points of issue for both sides but so many of you have said it all...and more than once.

My vote stays the same good news or bad, we can figure out the rest day 2.

Neb if you are a townie I'm gonna kick your ass lol.

In my opinion, people who call discussion "drivel" or "drool" aren't working in favor of the town. Discussion is the only place we can get clues! The more discussion, the better.

Those who want us to ignore the evidence AREN'T looking to lynch mafia. They're trying to further their agenda. I'm amazed how my support is disappearing. I keep presenting new points to defend myself, whereas my opponents simply repeat the same thing over and over.

I have heard enough from tarim and biscuit. The other players voting for me: Wasteland, Renno, Sanshiro...I'd like to hear why you honestly believe moss more than me. You can't ALL be mafia, but I don't see why a townie, if he actually examined all the evidence, would side with moss. Renno and Sanshiro, you've both expressed a distaste for reading the evidence, but Wasteland doesn't share that inclination. I'd like to know why he's against me.

Yes, Renno, kick my a$$...kick it hard.

I've managed to drool all over myself and half the town in the process...

Neb, the fact that you re-examine the evidence and have changing views is one of the biggest reasons I think you're townie. It's the people who seem sure who raise my eyebrows.

Don't consider all this discussion to be drool. It's all useful. Even if you end up voting me, even if it's the final vote, I hope the rest of the town won't persecute you for it. There are others who are almost surely mafia. You, I think, are town.