Oh and Mwmoss I went back and reviewed all the posts, you''ve made 12 posts and I''ve made 11, sorry bout that I didnt think you had been posting much it must have been because you went away for the weekend or whatever you said you did.

I don''t think quantity is what we look for ... I believe we look for quality of post.

That''s were you are failing a bit Minner.

Mostly you are defending your self and don''t come forward with ideas. Pick up the pace.

That is sort of my point. Minner, I am not calling you a newbie to be deragatory. I am calling you a newbie because you mention it pretty much every post. After the second or third time you were told we get the idea. Starting posts with what is effectively ''I might be a newbie but...'' just reinforces it. Being sensitive about it doesn''t help. I am pointing it out not to be deragatory but because I think it has reached the point where I think you are hiding behind it. Say your a newbie enough and hope people excuse mistakes like jumping on top of Geritol''s vote is good strategy if you are a double-teamer. I not buying it though. An experienced player like, yes, myself, or Sage, Coopels, Jmac, Gueritol will certainly coach you up to have to play that newbie card and hope the rest of us overlook mistakes.

Playing on fears that the double-teamers ''will get a 2 for 1'' to try and defend yourself is also not good. Everyone knows that lynching a Noble would be bad. If we can identify both or at least 1 mafia in exchange, we are still ahead ESPECIALLY if we save the power roles. So yes, I do know what I am doing and putting pressure on YOU and seeing how everyone else reacts is a good thing. Your posts and failure to do your homework just increase my suspicion of you. It shows you are scrambling and not thinking. I hope others actually start to post about this as well because I do now feel I am posting alot in a vacuum.

This should be a group discussion, not an exhange between us.

Here is my problem with the idea of considering Minner as the lynch for today, Moss:

In theory, he''s the perfect candidate. He''s acting in ways that can definitely be considered mafia-ish, and when we look at everyone else acting mostly innocent, it would seem that we should lynch him.

However...

I always end up seeing new players play like this. It''s our misfortune that mafia-clues and newbie-clues are one and the same.

In lynching him, we would be able to justify and say "we did the right thing..." but that doesn''t mean much if it''s actually the wrong thing.

Most of what can be gained from continuing this further is, as you said, seeing how everyone else responds. But I call on everyone to be hesitant to put the final vote on Minner until we as a town decide that''s what best. Nobody should make that decision themselves.

Moss,

I have a tendancy to agree with your assessment of minner. If he is simply a newbie AND a noble, (which I am less and less apt to believe as he continues to write himself into a corner), he is playing with far too much flip-flopping and confustion to actually be protective of the rest of us. I would not vote minner if I were leaning toward him being a newbie noble. In fact, I am not ready to vote yet as it is.

If, on the other hand, minner is a newbie and a double-attacker, his scrambling around IS beginning to take form as a pattern. The key, however, is to see who really must be coaching him - as we both know that Mafia can and do talk outside of the forum with one another for planning purposes. If we nobles can carefully examine the posts and isolate these two patterns as they relate to one another, we will be much closer to stopping the Mafia plot.

As I said, I am leaning toward minner as mafia (although bumbling), and I am evaluating who might be his coach.

Any further thoughts from the others on this line of thinking?

Jmac

Thank you Sage and Jmac. That is exactly the attitude I hoped people would take. I think I have been posting a bit much, so please do not be surprised if I am quiet for a bit. I will be reading, however. I will also be sure to remove my vote from Minner without warning as I see the need.

Gueritol weighed in a little, what do you think Coopels and Fufu?

On the other hand, we DO get one wrong lynch for free. We should ask ourselves...should we use that lynch and see what Minner''s alignment is? If we decide to "put off" figuring out Minner until Day 2, and we''re wrong on Day 1...we no longer have the option of using a "free" lynch and, at that point, our assessment of him would be even more important.

Thoughts?

P.S.

I''m in no way saying we should just rush and lynch Minner. I am proposing the idea that, perhaps, leaving him until Day 2 is in fact more dangerous than the possibility of mislynch, because he''s likely to be just as suspicious on Day 2, and at that point we can no longer afford to be wrong.

But any lynch would be after a lot more talk...giving him plenty of opportunity to learn how to defend himself, if inexperience truly is the problem.

I still do not get a feel for other players. Fufu has been but present, and I would love to hear more of what he says.
Coopels has few participations ... and I would also like to hear more.

To be honest i''m losing interest in this game since (to me at least) this seems to be more of a how to play mafia and not a real game. Most of the discussion so far has been based on the idea of how we should be playing. I know that it might be helpful for future games, but for this one it makes it rather boring to read how people should be playing and not that we are actually playing.

Perhaps my participations are few, but for the most part i''m pretty sure they actually pertain to THIS game. As i''ve said before though, i look more to quality than quantity...


If people are suspicious of Minner for making those mistakes then by all means say so by voting for him. We obviously aren''t getting anywhere on the first day from the pointless conversation about for games in the future.

I''m not convinced that Minner is mafia just because he isn''t playing at the same level everyone else thinks they''re playing at. As Sage said we do have one chance for a mistake and it might be better to make it now with someone questionable then wait when it really matters most. So go ahead and start the lynch someone... maybe that will finally move this game forward and if we''re lucky we will actually lynch the right person... whoever that is.

Usually it''s the intial talk that gives us the most help, but in my opinion so far that hasn''t hardly worked. As much as i hate the idea of lynching the wrong person, i don''t think anyone is going to say much more of value that will help anyone figure this out. A lynch or even a mislynch will at least give something more concrete than simple talk to look at.

Or, now that we have more to go on...we can try the "assignment" theory again!

Coopels
Gueritol
Sage
The Minner
Jmac
mwmoss
Fufu


This time, everyone take a look at the person ABOVE you. This far into the game, everyone has done something suspicious that is worth mentioning.

If you guys really feel the need just go ahead and lynch me, if you think it''ll help you guys out. Which I dont really see how it would since my vote would be worth more than a dead players...

The reason we''re considering lynching you is that you present the biggest unknown to us. You DO act in ways that suggest you are mafia. That is true regardless of your alignment or intention, unfortunately.

To let you live means IGNORING signals that you are mafia...which is, on principle, a very bad thing to do. If you are mafia, we''d basically be giving you a free pass...which would mean a mafia win.

To kill you, though, means ignoring the fact that you are new to the game. The reason why we lean toward this, though, is that it does NOT automatically represent a mafia win.

If you clean up your play, though, that cost-benefit analysis goes out the window, and there will be plenty of reason to let you live. You can start by doing a good, objective analysis of me...one that relies on facts and evidence and doesn''t play up your newness to the game.

Ok, since cords and string are breaking ... let''s go ahead and put pressure.

I think minner is not mafia. But I have a strong feeling that our absent player is. So I''ll innitiate voting on him and see how he reacts, and how the rest of you react.

I don''t like inactivity and secrecy.

Well again i must say that i am sorry. My inactivity was do to Band matters. Friday morning at 9 AM we had practice. Then i spent the night that there so could not be on to participate. Saturday morning again at 9 AM we had a bit of practice followed by a recording session. We recorded our first song but i was unable to get home until 7 PM tonight. But im back for the time being.

Back On Topic*

I must say that i very much agree with Coopels. SO far this game has been filled with many ideas on how to play mafia. Interesting to someone who is kinda new to the game, but not ideal seeing as it makes it harder sort through everything.

I also agree that Minner may just be Mafia. I think he has played the "I''m New" card one too many times. Then When he was called out for making a newbie post, he got very mad.
But it also seems very likely that he is truely just new to the game. SO far i am undecided on the matter, but we will see what the future holds.


As far as my absence of posts, there have been very few times i have seen any issues worth Chiming in about. I can guarantee you all that i am still reading and paying close attention, and that when i see fit i will post.
And im sorry for my absence Gueritol. My band mates live half an hour away and it makes it far easier to just spend the night than have to make my parents drive me there and pick me up two days in a row, Even if it meant being away for Over 30 hours. Sorry.

((I love music and was in a band ... so your priority is right))
I don''t hear arguments from you that say ... i''m not mafia. Nor even an attempt to get the vote off. So it stays!

Lol Gueritol, I think he meant that he wasnt mafia by all of the stuff that he said about not being too active because of his band and whatnot.

And to Sage I dont really understand what you mean by making an objective analysis, sorry I''m stupid .

Go through somebody''s posts. Pick each post apart, bit by bit, to look for suspicious material. Then look at the player''s posts as a whole and think about whether it is more likely they are scum or town.

Objective simply means not allowing subjective things, like your emotions, to blur your vision.

Ok, I have to agree with coopels here.

Come on guys ... action! ... look alive

I even encourage the mafia guys to step it up ... somebody!!!