OH...Now, Bud has jumped squarely into my sights!!

With your comments, Bud...for the moment, it appears to me that YOU are the other partner in crime....with you defending Neb, I am even now more convinced that I have suspected one of the liches from the very start.

For you to say "I am completely convinced that Jmac, Neb and Myself are 3 of the vampires"...almost completely convinces me that you are a lich.

I still accuse Neb and have no intention of changing my opinion (vote stays).

Okay, sugar and mwmoss. I''m appealing to your rational side here. You can still vote for me later if you like, but can''t you please pull your votes until we have everyone posting?

I plan to question, Bud, sugar and fufu yet. Please wait until we at least hear from them...unless you want to push the vote for me. If you''re really vampires, you should want to hear the whole stories from everyone...and that includes me. Now I know I''ve posted enough to make everyone suspicious of me, but someone should put together an analysis of what I''ve posted so that I can respond to it. Give me specifics.

Anyway, once we''ve completed all the analysis, then we can vote. To cast a vote on partial data is very questionable. Especially you mwmoss...what, I ask a few questions, and you get squirmy, so you cast a vote for me? What logic is that? And where the heck is Fufu? Laughing in the corner while I pin the target directly on my back? And why does Bud seem to associate himself so closely with me? (Remember, I''m not accusing anyone, I''m just throwing little things out there that should be thought about!) And how has Sugar flown under everyone''s radar? True vampire, or good lich?

Neb

Well for all of those who wonder i personally will not be voting for Neb. At first, yes he seemed quite suspicious, but after his more recent posts i am pretty sure he is a vampire. And i agree with Bud that neither him or Neb are Vampires.....but i am a tad worried that Jmac might be, but there is no real strong evidance against him.

Sugar and Moss on the other hand seem to be the perfect lich candadates,at least at the moment. It seemed at first like maybe they werent in things to gether but the way sugar keeps fighting for neb and agreeing with Moss makes me think that they just might be in Cahoots.

But hey thats all just my opinion.

P.S. What happened to Big? I though the was brought back to life.

I very strongly beleive that Sugar is a Lich though. Its not based on any real hard evidence its morer just the feeling i get from his posts. He seems to post in an angry not really a vampire "GRRRR!!! i WANNA KILL THE VAMPS!!!" kinda way.

Also sorry about not posting earlier i wanted to read what else would be said while i was away......also im sorry about the double posting

Fufu!?! Moss and I in Cahoots!?? You got too many bats flying around in that vampire head of yours! Or is it possible as Neb suggested that only one of the four that were responsible for BBBP''s death was actually a lich?

No, you''re just allowing yourself to be persuaded without being rational, I think.

I''m by no means in cahoots with mw, and I''m certainly not a lich. mw WAS my guess for being the second lich until just recently after hearing him speak more...and more importantly hearing what Bud had to say.

My accusation of Neb is correct...I also was suspicious of Jmac, with his first vote for BBBP...but remember who quickly changed their vote to make it two(Neb)...and then who cast the third (Bud)....and I believe mw just made an honest mistake with three votes in place and cast the deathblow to BBBP.

At the moment, I think Neb and Bud are our devious deut, don''t get confused Fufu...listening to their music.

Another thing, Fufu...
After Neb''s recent posts, you think him a vampire?!
He''s close to the death a lich deserves!!...Of course, he''s attempting to cast doubts in at least one vampires'' head....don''t be that one!!

Gentlemen (and liches),

First of all, thank you Neb for your careful consideration of my position on things - I am more satisfied that you are weighing the evidence with careful consideration prior to your choice, which tells me that you are likely not a liche.

Sugar - benign in his responses.

mw - incenuative ALL the time.

Fufu - confusing.

Bud - slides back and forth in his decision making.

Question is: which of these are the liches? Who keeps trying to fly below the radar while jumping on votes with one another.

Finally - thank you to whomever for aptly pointing out AGAIN that I was the first to vote for my fellow vampire, BBBP. Argh. The only thing that this constant reminder does well is show that I am not somehow following other people''s voting trends. Unfortunately, the fact that one of the others who voted for BBBP might be a lich fails to clear my name in having started the voting for him in the first place.

This is tricky.

Jmac

Anyone else find it odd that mwmoss and sugar are the only two voting for me, and will not seemingly even look at any other evidence? Anyway, on to Bud...

Bud. Like mwmoss, you have played this game pretty close to the vest. Next to Fufu, you might have the next least posts of anyone.

1. Knowing that BBBP had two votes on him, you still cast a 3rd vote. This definitely put BBBP at risk for a 4th vote. While you didn''t pull the trigger, so to speak, you definitely got in there to set up BBBP for the kill. Why put a 3rd vote on him?

2. Rereading your posts, you are seeming to ride along with whatever I am posting. Now I don''t mind that, but it certainly looks like you are trying to attach yourself to me as a safety net, so that when I get lynched, you can say `see, I''m not a lich, I didn''t vote for Neb.`

3. You state fufu, sugar, and moss as your top three suspects. I''d like you to elaborate on why for each of them.

That''s all I got for you...I''ll wait for your response.

Neb

PS - Meanwhile, sugar and moss, please take your votes off of me!

Oh, I''m also waiting for someone to post evidence against me. Perhaps Sugar or mwmoss would like to take this task on, as they are the only 2 here who are absolutely sure that I am a lich...

Well Neb, you made a bit of a mistake. I didn''t vote for you because you questioned me. My vote should have been up there before you did and for the reasons stated. I happily answer any questions posed me and even some that are not neccessarily for just me - i.e. Bud''s about what I would do as Minister.

And yes Bud, I would protect Fufu or Sugarleo on night 1, for exactly the reasons stated. I think it is fairly obvious that 2 of the 4 people who voted for BBBP were liches. I have stated again and again that I do not think Fufu or Sugarleo are liches. Of course the liches would know this already. So, who do you think I think they would hit? One of the two people who I believe are most obviously not liches or hit 1 of the 4 who voted for BBBP? Suddenly instead of having to pick 2 liches out of 4, you only have to pick 2 out of 3. Given that, I think it is fairly obvious that the liches would stake Fufu or Sugarleo. So, to answer you question again, YES I would protect Fufu or Sugarleo. Its almost like you just complete dismissed that logic, so lets hear some of you own. Who would YOU have protected and why?

To Fufu, please tell me why you think Sugarleo and I are ''in cahoots''. I think I have stated clearly my logic as to why I think Neb is a lich. The evidence is simply there. I personally do not like going on ''feelings''. Why do you think Sugarleo is a lich? Simply looking at evidence and agreeing with it does not make us ''in cahoots''. I don''t think Sugarleo is a lich for exactly the same reason I dont think you are. You haven''t done anything suspicious! And THAT is why I think Neb is a lich.

Sorry Neb, it is not because you question. I hate to keep saying reread my posts, but I feel like people don''t. I have never had a problem with your questions! Of me or of anyone else! Its the little additions and the pattern of your actions.

Convince me Neb is not a lich, that''s all I ask. We cannot afford another mistake. I see the evidence, and it points to Neb. Convince me he is not a lich or convince me that someone else is.

Sorry to post again, I guess neb was posting while I was writing

Neb, I have posted the evidence against you already. Trying to pretend I did not is simply another piece of evidence against you. You might be able to try and explain away your statements/actions, but I will not let you try to use the length of this thread to hide those actions. Trying to pretend that I did not state exactly what you had said/done to raise my suspicions is not the action of an innocent vampire.

Okay mwmoss, I had to piece together what you were referring to. It would have been much easier for you to put your points into one concise post, but again, let me do all the work here...I''ve sifted through your posts to come up with what I think are your questions...

''Neb`s actions are what I find suspicious. He was the driving force behind the BBBP vote.'' - It''s funny how everyone views me as the `driving force` like none of you have a brain in your own heads to think for yourself. Using this as an excuse for me being a lich is not a valid arguement. You all had a chance to ask questions and vote for whoever you liked. It''s not my fault you followed my mistake. I knew that if BBBP wasn''t a lich, I''d have the mark squarely on me. At the time BBBP didn''t post anything that would have led me to believe he wasn''t the lich, which you have also stated you believed he was a lich in your posts. I''m also not sure how the other voters seem to get a free pass either...

`He was the driving force on Fufu initially and now on Jmac.` - I''m not driving anyone! I''m asking questions and getting people to talk. Reread all of Jmac''s posts...he is not consistent! I''d ask you to reread Fufu''s posts, but he doesn''t have much worth reading.

`Neb does have a history of doing things like this to put pressure on people, so those actions in an of themselves are not what gives me concern. What does give me concern is his more subtle actions. He reminds us that we did poorly on day 1` - We did do poorly. How is that a subtle action of anything? It''s a statement of fact!

`and, if only by implication, that Fufu or Sugarleo could be a lich.` - I didn''t understand what you meant on this initially, but I do now. So please tell me why Fufu and Sugar absolutely cannot be lichs?

`I felt he did jump on the BBBP bandwagon a bit quickly.` - I didn''t jump on it, I started it! Jumping on would mean that someone actually made arguements to vote for him and I followed. Yet above you state that I was the driving force? Which is it?

` I am not so sure that he didn''''t already realize Jmac was voting for BBBP. That is not normal Neb behavoir. He reads and rereads every post and watched the vote thread like a hawk. It is confusing that Jmac posted a second vote response, but it was early and obvious and I thought it a bit of a weak excuse from Neb that he missed Jmac''''s vote.` - Your right. I can''t believe I missed that too...but he already had a post further up on the page, and I did miss it. The more incriminating thing would be that I didn''t change my vote once I found out about it, but you totally whiffed on that one! As I said before, BBBP did not really do anything to persuade me to not vote for him. It''s a mistake I can''t get back.

In another post you write....`I have been much more critical of Neb''''s actions/words. In particular I have pointed out repeatedly that I do not think either you or Fufu are liches. That is one place where I certainly disagree with Neb. He has been subtly trying to insinuate that either you or Fufu are a lich. I believe pointing this out does two things. First, it difuses a false accusation and second, it supports my view that Neb is a lich.` - Again, why are you so absolutely sure that Sugar and Fufu are not lichs? What have they said or added in terms of value that is so convincing? Also, I''m not sure how this `difuses a false accusation`...what does that mean. I truly don''t understand what you are trying to say there. And again, how does me keeping an open mind that anyone can be the lichs support your accusation of me being a lich? I don''t understand that logic.

There''s your responses. Not sure what else I can do to convince you I''m not the lich. Anyone else have any questions?

Sugar?

I''m still waiting for Bud''s responses.

N

I have no questions for you, Neb, and I am not surprised that your attempts to raise doubts are hitting a fevered pitch...you are near death and will do anything to stay alive.

I wasn''t so sure when I voted for you the first day, but as you speak more and more, I congratulate myself for choosing you as a lich when there was little evidence at first.

A couple points that have persuaded me are...
1. You were the first to change a vote AND the first to cast a second vote on another (setting BBBP up for your lich brother to cast the third and then just simply encourage only one more vote to cut the vampire ranks).

2. Your continued efforts to cast doubts in mine and Fufu''s direction...two that DIDN''T VOTE against BBBP (this clearly shows, IMO, that you are deflecting the attention away from the four who did, and the two among them, that are most likely liches).

3. Your continued attempts to minimize mw''s conclusions and logic. mw clearly stated his reasoning behind his deductions that neither I nor Fufu are liches, but immediately following his explanation, you still ask for reasons when he has just stated them.

4. Your recent weak questioning of Bud. You know exactly why he cast the third vote on BBBP...you laid the trap, he baited it and all you two had to do was wait for one of us to be mislead.
You continue with your attempts to arouse suspicion of mw and I, alongwith Fufu by asking Bud to elaborate on why he considers us as the three main suspects for liches. Another subtle action (as mw has mentioned others) by you, which to me, only shows the teamwork of two liches in the guise of questioning.

I expect, if time permits, you will increase the attempts to confuse Fufu and Jmac into thinking that mw and I are incorrect in our assumptions that you are indeed, lich #1.

That''s logical.....we are your biggest threats.

Fufu and Jmac, I ask you to review Neb''s words and especially examine mw''s logic, concerning the voting and the reasons he states that MOST LIKELY, I and Fufu ARE vampires. Don''t allow the song and dance of Bud and Neb mislead you, I may be wrong on my accusation of Bud....but each time they speak, it seems clearer and more probable.

2 notes.

1. Bud was on and didn''t post.
2. Sugar. For one second can you look at my posts without thinking I''m a lich? I am actually trying to help the vamps out here. It''s like you can''t accept the fact that you are wrong about me, so you continue to just think I''m a lich no matter what I post. Try looking at them with an open mind, and see that I am trying to help. I realize that the way I am going about it is a bit confusing, but I''m hoping that the end result is a clear picture of who are the lichs.

Neb

working on a response.. it will be posted today

Thank you for replying Neb. I won''t say you have convinced me, but at least there is plenty for others to read and make decisions.

You say all you were doing were asking questions. Ok, that would be true in Jmac''s case, but not in Fufus. Yes, you were not the driving force behind BBBP, it was a group screw up, but you certainly seem to have taken advantage of that situation. You cast a vote for Fufu when ''questioning'' him. I cannot think of a more threatening thing to do. You say it was an effort to get him to talk. Ok, but in hindsight, why should I not think it was an attempt to get people to maybe take out a newbie quickly whur vote to BBBP when you did. Again, it just seems so opportunistic. Fufu''s reply was just not that strong and you just seemed to accept it as an excuse to change your line of attack.

Now I will grant you that not voting for Jmac while trying to turn the screws on him is a point in your favor. At that point, however, a vampire had already died and voting for Jmac would be even more suspicious.

I have not held you saying we did poorly on day 1 against you or said this indicates you are a lich. I think that we, and I, did poorly as well! And yes, I do not think it is out of the realm of possibility that Fufu or Sugarleo are liches, I just think it highly unlikely. Had you said that, I might not be as suspicious. Instead you say things along the lines of ''at least 1 of the 4 voting for BBBP is a lich'' or something lik ''we did so poorly that a lich might not have had to vote for BBBP''. You insinuate, you imply, you plant seeds for others to pick up on them. Well, I think I have picked up on them and identified them for what they are, the mechanations of a lich! Do you think really think one of those two are liches and if so, say why!

I am hoping that this is not just a clash of styles. I do not and have not catagorically dismissed Fufu or Sugarleo as liches, I hope that is clear. I state my belief that it is very unlikely that either are a lich. They have done nothing that I find particularly suspicious. I welcome anyone so show otherwise.

Oh, and I do not find you not removing your vote from BBBP to be particularly suspicious once you ''realized'' Jmac had already voted for him. That is sort of a damned if you do damned if you don''t situation now.

I believe you are a lich Neb. I keep looking at the evidence and it seems to point to you. Fufu, Bud, Jmac, or Sugar - even Neb! - please convince me who another lich may be.

How idiotic would it be for me to defend Neb if we are both mafia. Does that not allow you all to put the bulls eye squarely on us? I see it exactly the opposite of you all. Since you are mafia you are turning my posts against 2 more vampire brothers. Knowing full well that if you can convince just 2 more players to vote your way that you will win the game.

Neb:
1.) I clearly stated my reasons for voting for Big and I feel there is no way that you can use the 3rd vote against me. It was made for reasons OTHER than he already had 2 votes on him. This is apparently up for debate by you all but there should be no clout put into when I voted.
2.) My “riding along” with you is inaccurate. I made my own points about Big and I even questioned your actions a couple of times. So the thought that I could say I’m not a lich if you get lynched is BS. Sorry you and I think alike in this game, but If you are a vamp and get lynched the mafia takes me out that night because they know I’m one of the other vamps and they win the game. If you''re a lich I still die because they can use my actions up to this point against me.
3.)My reasons for suspecting sugar, moss and fu are this:

Fu: Here is a chronological of Fu’s posts. Retaliates against Neb for accusing him, Tries to link Big and I by clan, remorseful and cowering after Neb vote for him and then he accuses Neb.
Day 2: He all of a sudden agrees with Neb and picks Jmac, comes right out and says I won’t vote for Neb, he then agrees with me and mentions jmac again, lastly he picks sugar by “feel”
None of this drivel is useful. He’s been on the sidelines afraid to make a real stand until Neb voted for him. All of this is leads me to think he’s playing the field like a lich in the background or like Neb said he’s a vamp that is of no use to us. He also did not vote on day one. This would allow him the opportunity for an out when we begin to question who voted for Big. This also ties into my thoughts about moss picking him to protect if you’re the minister??

Moss: Your choice of protecting Fu makes no sense. He has done nothing to prove he would be a threat to the mafia and if I were mafia I would want him still in this game. I can better understad the sugar protection but only slightly. I would have protected Neb if I were the minister. He’s been the only one willing to put his neck on the line to get things all riled up. The mafia had to know this and if I were the mafia I would have tried to take him out first night. I have to give you credit, your posts are always informative and seem to be well thought out. But I just can’t get past several things about your actions. First you state that you’re not convinced Big or Fu are liches yet you try to justify giving Big the 4th vote by calling him a lich. I also don’t like the fact that you now have tried to pin the lich tag on 2 of the 3 other voters. You pulled the trigger and I think now you found a way to defend that vote by saying the 4th vote did not get cast because either Big was the lich or the 2 liches already voted.

Sugar: quietly suspected moss, but then he let him fall off his radar.. Has been with moss in suspecting Neb from the beginning. While this would be dangerous for both mafia to come out together like that I think sugar’s put enough blame elsewhere to distance himself from moss.

Bud, I think your answer reflects your current feelings, not the state of the game once we offed BBBP. Its possible I am doing the same. Yes, Fufu had not been a big contributor. Its wonderful how he has come life a bit. You say you would protect Neb because he has/will put his neck on the line. That is precisely why I would not protect him! The two people who were the least suspicious at that time were Fufu and Sugarleo, which is exactly what makes them ideal targets. (Remember, this is after BBBP was actually dead and we could see voting patterns.) The goal of the Minister is not to protect whomever is most valuable to the vampires or even whomever might be most dangerous to the liches. The goal of the Minister is to protect whomever the liches are afer that night. Its a classic guessing game. So do not say it doesn''t make sense. I think you would do better to think deeper on the subject.

Why are so concerned about this anyway? And why are you not asking others to answer this question? I volunteered for it, apparently to my detriment as your dissatisfaction with my answer has made you suspicious of me.

To your other point, I DID say I was convinced BBBP was a lich. Specifically I said after going all day without a 4th vote I thought that him not getting that 4th vote was because he was a lich. The coralary to that would be that either Fufu or Sugarleo were a lich, so I pulled the trigger. I was wrong.

THAT is why I do not think either Fufu or Sugarleo are liches in particular. BOTH had plenty of opportunity to pull the trigger. Had BBBP been a lich, I think it is fairly obvious that Fufu or Sugarleo would also be one. We would have effectively won the game right then. Again, that makes the reverse most likely true, that Fufu and Sugar are not liches.

Also, please make a distinction as to the timing of my statements. Before BBBP, I didnt really have an opinion of Fufu one way or the other, only that he was new and it is pretty tough to classify new player actions. Silence could be a lich wanting to hide or it could be a new player who is not sure of himself. It is my opinion that were Fufu a lich, he would have put the 4th vote on BBBP.

Maybe I am misreading Neb''s actions. I feel I did everything right and still got tricked into taking out BBBP. I will not say I was following Neb, because I was not. Just like you Bud, I make my own decisions. With all that in mind, I have tried to analyze the available evidence and that evidence does point to Neb very strongly. At least I am considering what you say and hopefully other will contribute as well.

Anyway, I feel like I am monopolizing the thread way to much. I will do my best to only answer direct questions for awhile. I think a marthon session of World of Warcraft might be in order after work

OK, since moss was the only one to answer the question, I post it again. If you were the minister who would you have chosen to save during the night and why ??

Fellow Vampires....please read/study mwmoss''s last few posts...you should be able to see the logic and understand why He and I are convinced of Neb''s true identity.

To address Bud''s question and reference to me.

Yes, even though I am a new player to this contest, I did suspect Neb from the first, but I don''t think your statement that mw did as well is correct.....didn''t he vote against BBBP?

Now...as far as the Minister of Health question...and attempting to think back before all the latest comments and information....if I were the Minister, I believe I would have chosen Jmac or Fufu.

Fufu, because he was quiet, had said very little and because he didn''t participate in the first death. Another reason was, I knew he was also one of the new players (as me) and I didn''t expect Sage to choose him for a lich. Yes, my thoughts were incorrect, but at the time, I wasn''t aware that the roles were randomly chosen.

Jmac, because again, he hadn''t commented enough for me to form any real opinion either way...and his vote for BBBP was the first and not the second or following votes, which in my opinion, provides more insight to who the liches were (and are).