These characters were given an overhaul by a member a few years ago, but does anyone think as I do that the balance may still need serious adjustment?

To give an example in the PG_271 game Trotsky was doing a fantastic job of holding my advanced medieval characters at bay basicly with ballista, arbelestiers, squires, falchs and commandeers and with maximum castle and character defences and also because for another reason I had to waste a lot of gold and movement time on battering rams and catapults which are basically effective attacking only structures while being vulnerable to even ranged attacks not to mention my inability to assemble an adequate assault force.

Against demonic characters, at least three of which can fly over walls, there's no way Trotsky can make the same kind of defence imho.
Also against even advanced medieval units without battering rams or catapults, I can last several turns in a walled castle with just ranged units, but not more than a couple turns against units that can fly over walls.

Anyway someone like Hambone is pretty good at statistical details and I think it would be interesting to discuss the balance of power from all perspectives of the various characters types.

rex

Last Edited : Monday, 11 June 2012 - 05:09

I played with Demonic on my first game in the proving grounds, but haven't really played with them since, so I can't really comment.

The flying characters are a pain to defend against, for sure. I think that's why most people starting games restrict it to medieval only.

What would be good is to enable all players to start games where barbarians are allowed, but be able to exclude demonic.

I think we might have some interesting games then...

There are defenses to be used against demons flying in to visit. One is to deny them a landing spot by filling a castle with buildings, drawbridges and towers. Once they get some siege weapons on the scene you are in trouble, but the other thing about demons is they are extremely slow, especially the flying ones. You can outrun them with almost anything, denying a fight to the demon master.

The higher end demons are quite expensive, as well, so even though the cheap ones can be plentiful they are weak units compared to the other races.

I'm not saying there couldn't be adjustments to the troops abilities but it should be carefully worked out beforehand. I stress that although this game doesn't get much upkeep, it is finally stable, so changing stuff is a risk.

Demons might be slow, but don't forget the demonic leaders give them +3 movement.

Mog,
the outrunning them argument just doesn't cut it imho because demonic only have one less 9 speed to medieval 4 whereas cats and ballis move at 5 while demonic only have boulder demons that move at 5 ...
In general the total movement of medieval is 126 to 125 for demonic.

Meantime to where are medieval running (their castle? (where demonic fly over their walls (where in an even up game my archers and ballis would be crushed long before I could fill it with drawbridges)))?

The demonic do seem a little weaker among the lower level units (i.e although archers are included as having a higher attack/defence rating (i.e. while doing less damage (i.e. as if that's worth anything)));

However, demonic seem just as strong as medieval and even stronger getting into medium and advanced troops;

And you'll have to be more specific about cost because if you've got the income and the gold, units with 180 health seem worth as much as catapults to me.

rex

PS:
Mog,
you've always had a prejudice against castle sitters and even once suggested ladder troops because you couldn't bring yourself to go for the cost of cats ...
Castle sitting is most of the fun in the game for several folks
And it's where I stopped Ice from winning his bet against me ...
Don't misunderstand, he won the duel, but didn't win the bet (i.e he didn't eliminate me or something ...
the details escape me now).

Demonic are spoiling a great game imho.

rex

"Also against even advanced medieval units without battering rams or catapults, I can last several turns in a walled castle with just ranged units, but not more than a couple turns against units that can fly over walls.":TR

I would hope so...damn, with building upgrades, a wall is 8000 health, and a drawbridge, 6000.
Without rams and cats, that's ONLY 32 attacks to bust a wall down...so best case, attacking a corner wall with three units, it would take 11 turns to take out a wall (remember, with THREE units attacking) and 8 turns if someone placed a corner drawbridge. Last several turns?...yeah, anyone could and should...15-20 turns if you actually have units inside the castle and fight back.

Medi is still boss. I consider myself an expert campaigner...and even though this is the first game I've tried demons, I can already see, given equal circumstances, they'll come up short against Medi.
Certainly, Barbarians will...IMO and playing experience, they're even weaker than demons. When I say weaker, I'm talking about not only attack/defense...I'm including range, movement and cost to deploy.

Longbowmen can't equal marks and ballistas and I expect that Wyngerns and scorpies won't stand up to marks and ballis either...as Mog mentioned, they've got to 'get to' those marks and ballistas. Unless a Medi player misses a turn, Wyngerns will take a hit BEFORE delivering one...range v movement, Medi wins. I think you may put too much emphasis on 'flying over walls'...the marks and ballistas are 'firing over walls'...right?


Demon seige is inferior to cats as well...boulder demons cost 15K and have 2 less range spaces, not to mention, deliver much less damage per attack.

Since you used the current game (we're all in) as your reference and perhaps, since I'm the one using demons and assaulting Trotsky, my opinion may offer enough substance to be considered.
Trotsky has defended extremely well against my attacks and has lost only one castle so far...and there was another one castle owner/player assisting in that assault against him.
It's NOT because I'm using demons and he's using Medi, it's a result of him being engaged by as many as 5 players at one time (having multiple fronts).
Even though I joined the game in turn Fifty something, I landed in a good spot and was able to expand to almost 20 castles very quickly and had the advantage of only defending one long front (being primarily in the bottom two rows of castles).
So concluding that Trotsky is being defeated simply because I'm using Demons is incorrect....all those other factors are involved. When we engaged, we both had about the same castles and income, but he had 3 & 4 other enemies to contend with....that is what 'tips' the scale (in this game)...not that Demons are superior to Medi.

In the current game, I'll probably get to engage Mog...it may not be a 'true test' since I joined 50 turns late...but I've got almost 25% of the map now (still less than Mog) and it should be a good 'proving ground'....and we should have more experience to judge my opinion.

Last Edited : Wednesday, 13 June 2012 - 12:04

Yikes!

I have to agree with Sugar, demons are inferior to the other classes if you know how to defend against them. The lack of decent siege makes it impossible to win with those. Flying troops wount help if you fence them off with some constructions.

"Even though I joined the game in turn Fifty something, I landed in a good spot and was able to expand to almost 20 castles very quickly and had the advantage of only defending one long front (being primarily in the bottom two rows of castles)."-sugarleo

Were none of those 20 castles of the 8 or 10 or so that I left with just walls and little or no troop defence where Demons could just fly over the walls and take them (i.e. where Medi or Barbs would have to move bats or cats and use several turns doing so)?

PS:
Trotsky was occupied against minor players when I tangled with him also and admittedly without cats and bats, I wouldn't have been able to dent his defences;
And also, because his original castle was so full of buildings, Demons would have found a difficulty of where to land;
But I assure you that if I had *"Wyngerns and scorpies"* his archers and ballis wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as they did.

PPS:
"When we engaged, we both had about the same castles and income, but he had 3 & 4 other enemies to contend with....that is what 'tips' the scale (in this game)...not that Demons are superior to Medi."-sugarleo

Here's the latest gamenews from PG_271 which doesn't look terribly unbalanced to me considering that Mog and Trotsky seem to have the same opponents:

"Turn 103 : Wednesday, 13 June 2012
There were 194 troops slain in battle.
The following major battles rage on...

Mog vs hitmewithit
LOD vs Trotsky
Trotsky vs LOD
hitmewithit vs Mog
sugarleo vs TaurusRex
hitmewithit vs Trotsky
Mog vs LOD
TaurusRex vs sugarleo
Trotsky vs sugarleo"

Also Sugar in 50 turns or so, I only managed about 8 or 10 castles to your 20 ...
yes, it's a PG game, but doesn't that say it all?
Income is where it's at in that PG game and you're up equal in that department with the big guys already.

In conclusion Sugar, when you take my final castle which you're approaching now, are you seriously going to try to say that it would be easier if you had Medi and instead of Demonic?

Be warned though, I am building fences.

rex

Last Edited : Wednesday, 13 June 2012 - 17:34

Your first point...Wnygerns, scorpies and neehts CAN NOT take the castle...
I expanded quickly using neehts, moving them quickly to an unoccupied castle, taking a barracks over, waiting two turns for point accumulation, deploy a summonner, wait another turn and then take the castle. This DOES NOT work if enemy units are in the castle.
LOD and I had this discussion earlier, it can be done in equal time using Medi (comms). Since comms deliver around 750 damage versus the 250 by other units, they can bust a wall move in and take the whole castle, barracks and all in no more than one turn's difference, if that.

"the latest game news"??! That only reflects the last couple turns and in no way can be used to validate your position about what took place, 10 or more turns prior. Additionally, I can manipulate 'game news' to show what I want.

"Also Sugar in 50 turns or so, I only managed about 8 or 10 castles to your 20 ...
yes, it's a PG game, but doesn't that say it all?":TR

Yes, I think it really does...

Taking your 'last' castle?...actually it's your first castle, since you quit and then rejoined...5 red archers, one crossbow master and a protector? Yes, I could take you out with a few comms and nothing else. That's not enough to provide a comparison.

Last Edited : Thursday, 14 June 2012 - 00:01

""Also Sugar in 50 turns or so, I only managed about 8 or 10 castles to your 20 ...
yes, it's a PG game, but doesn't that say it all?":TR

Yes, I think it really does... "-Sugar

Oops
I did forget that you like to believe the difference is that you're so much better a player than the rest of us Sugar, but I believe the difference is that you're using Demonics and the rest of the players in contention in that PG are using Medieval.

rex

Last Edited : Thursday, 14 June 2012 - 00:53

Now there you go...crediting me with thoughts that I didn't say...but I will say this...

I AM a better campaign player than you on my worse day...and if you think you're right again (as you always do)...then let's play a duel...you play demons and I'll play Medi...I should lose if you're correct in your assumptions about demons being sooooo much stronger, right?

Just send a personal msg anytime you see me on line and we'll get the duel started.

*delete*

Last Edited : Thursday, 14 June 2012 - 15:20

Anyway, one of the imbalances that jumps out at me from playing against Demonics here and in other games is the Demigod's superiority to anything that can be fielded. You can blast away( in my experience) w/ Marks & Bals w/ little effect . Hack away w/ Knights,HC, & Mace - you wind up w/ hacked up Knights/HC/Mace with little damage doled out in return. A full strength Demi is awesome to behold , and if you're in a game w/ Demis, there's never just one. Looks like @ one time there may have been a unit superior to knights planned called a Crusader ? Maybe that was planned for play balance w/ Demis ? Anyway, what ifs don't apply, and I'm just making an observation. Also, re the rocks, paper, scissors, aspect - a number description for Demonic type confuses me re: what type of unit it's supposed to be.

the thing is that you will not see many demis in an ordinary campaign. In the proving game however it's possible to get the income needed.

The other thing about really powerful units is that they only get to strike once per turn. Sure, they kill whatever they hit but you can then attack them with everything you can field. They aren't invulnerable, just darn strong.

That's a very good point Mog. If you field lots of spear and swordsmen, you can surround your ballistas and knights with cheap units, so the demon lord cannot land next you your valuable units. Then, blam them with your ballistas and knights. Any war is a contest of two economies. Each spearman you lose only costs 2000 (or less if already damaged). So each turn, a demigod kills 1 or 2 spearmen? So what? For the cost of 1 demigod (inflicting 2000 gold damage per turn), you could buy 2 knights and 2 spear, or 2 ballistas. Each balli will kill a 10 pop stack of summoners stone dead (total 6000 gold) or kill 1-2 pop demigods (total 5280-7920 gold).

The battle of two wartime economies is perfectly illustrated by the following apocryphal story from World War II:

An American is guarding a German prisoner, and they're discussing who are the 'better' race... The American pointedly asks "If you're so superior, how come you're my prisoner?"

To which the German responds... "For the last four days, I manned my PaK gun [or King Tiger -ed]. Every time a Sherman came over the hill, I fired and destroyed it. It just happened that we ran out of shells before you ran out of Shermans..."

In this case, your spearmen are the Shermans. The demigod is the King Tiger. It only gets one shell per turn.

"The other thing about really powerful units is that they only get to strike once per turn. Sure, they kill whatever they hit but you can then attack them with everything you can field. They aren't invulnerable, just darn strong."-Mog


The part you're forgetting though is that these *"darn strong"* units can absorb quite a lot of attacks and a player with 20 castles will probably be fielding well over 100 units with several among them that can absorb several attacks and EACH *"strike once per turn"*.

In battles with Trotsky in this PG before I quit, he would unload his entire attack of archers, ballista, squires and falchs on just a few of my knights and macemen (i.e. reducing them severely, yet not completely).

Can Demigods also fly over being surrounded by spearmen?

PS:
That's another point by Trotsky concerning the rock, paper, scissor thing ...
which type attack works best against a flying Demonic unit like Wyngerns?

rex

Demigods can fly. To Mog's point , if I understood correctly, the tactics have to adjust in order to compensate for the Demonic's inherent capabilities.