You just don't get it Sugar ...
when I went to college at our state college, it cost me less than $1200./semester.
Today that same college costs $12,000./semester commuting;
but again, you're right, folks just haven't learned that unless they're earning at least $60K/year they have to go live in row-houses in neighborhoods where they can get mugged walking down to the corner store
and send their kids to schools where the bullies can make their kid think he's a sissy.

It's a different world out there today and there are 43 million people on food stamps that will probably start breaking and enterring if/when they get cut off. The reason the crime rate is up in my home town is because Christe laid off over 100 policemen I understand.
Anyway, my position is not that I like how our tax-payer money is used, but it seems to me that there's something radically wrong when 23 million people can't find work and 43 million people are on food stamps.


PS:
Bill O'Reilly was on Letterman earlier this evening and he very callously remarked that 9% of the protesters are on substance abuse ...
Letterman responded that he didn't believe him.
O'Reilly responded: "Wanna bet"?

rex

People are out of jobs because we use a lot more machines today for simple services like counting money paying bills well almost any line of menial work is done or assisted by more machines. This will not change but increase as teknology develops. Fewrer and fewer are needed and those who own the machines make more and more money without having to worry about unions and such. That's why we will need a totally new system. Who should only a fraction of the population have all the wealth and the rest have to live in poverty (which will soon be the case if we let this go on long enough) We will go back to a form of feudal situation where the lords by the help of military and security personell will stay in fortresses. Look around you and say I'm not right. Already there are cealed off communities where only the rich are allowed.
No my friends it's time to let go of the broken system , capitalism and find something better. We need a system that let's us all share what is produced by the machines as a basic right for each member of the country. We need to rid ourselves of the greed and corruption that comes along with the use of money that can be accumulated. Maybe money cound be made for personal use only. Maybe also with a "to be used before date" The best would be to abolish money altogether, question is what we would use instead? Honour rewards and status in the society is a good way to award and motivate people to achieve splendour. Many are those in history who went out to win glory and fame for king and country (or God) often at great expenses for themselves and no monetary gain expected.
Bill O'reilly ? Is he still in action And where did he get figures like that, Did he make a survey? Following that method I could claim 20% of the bankers are on substance, with no way to prove or disprove it. Well facts were never O'Reillys strong side

Last Edited : Saturday, 15 October 2011 - 00:03

Why is it that we have inflation? Because every dollar in circulation has been lended from the federal reserve and has an interest attach to it we will never have enough money around to cover what was lended plus the interest on it. We need to keep lending to cover our debts. When the money supply rises every dollar is inflated, thats simple math (the demand and supply law). Also the greed for ever bigger profit drives the inflation ofcourse. Workers try to stay in the game by demanding higher wages to compensate for the shrinking value of money also add to the inflation but they will never really catch up with the bankers as the game is rigged. The stockmarket is a big hoax invented to transfer welth from the masses to the few on top. Crashes are well planned and there to enable the bankers to buy assets cheaply after they have boosted the market for some time and then let it crash. This is an accelerating game. Crises will come more often as techniques of trading gets faster.
That's why tuition in that school now is 10 times as many dollars, TR
It's all a big scam aiming to take the money and welth from ordinary Joes. Keeping them down so that they will get desperate enough to work for any price. Soon enough an ordinary job will not cover your basic costs but you have to get a second one just to put food on the table, it's either working yourself to an early grave or alternatively go criminal. Either way you will loose. Is this a system we want to promote ? I think not...

Last Edited : Saturday, 15 October 2011 - 12:10

I have to point out that the USA spends more on military than the rest of the world combined and until that stops we will continue to have a falling standard of living since military expenditures don't do the economy nearly as much good making jobs as non-military production does. It's a waste and also an Imperial shame.

Apparently not correct, Mog...
US military spending accounts for 43 percent, or over two-fifths (almost half) of the world’s total military spending. ...but I agree, that's still a huge amount.

Here's some good information:
www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending#InContextUSMilitarySpendingVersusRestoftheWorld

However, one must consider the activity of our forces (related to expenditures and other nations' activities) throughout the world....I tend to agree with Texas Congressman Ron Paul that many cuts could be made without putting the US at risk...many bases around the world 'could' be closed...and a new philosophy should be adopted about our participation or intervention (depending on one's point of view) in political/military situations within other countries.

Adopt an attitude of...we stay out of your business...you stay out of ours...but touch/attack our citizens and expect a quick response. Forget nation building....you attack our interests/citizens...expect a scorched earth scenario...

But, of course...that's not politically correct for much of our current citizenry..is it? Got to have a heart, right...well we see what that's got us...our President just sent more troops into action on the continent of Africa...possibly seeing 'action' in another four countries.

Protect your interests and allies...and don't worry about letting the arrows loose when attacked...just like here in the game...AND...don't worry about the bloody spots...a country invades or attacks, then it's their problem to 'pick up the pieces, afterwards'...that would restore some order very quickly....reminds me of a phrase from a movie starring Sean Connery..."sometimes peace can only be achieved on the other side of war"....something similar to that...but the meaning is clear.

Last Edited : Saturday, 15 October 2011 - 13:45

Yes, TR....and a loaf of bread 'used' to cost a nickel....

What's wrong with our public schools? We've spent an increasing amount of money over the past few decades...and the dems always bring that up anytime another funding bill needs passed. Just drink the koolaide, don't bother to look at the results....

And yes, there is something wrong with millions on food stamps and out of work....government...

As far as the 9% of our population that IS substance addicted...that happens to be the data from the Dept of Health and Human Services...
The question about that related to Welfare support for these people...enabling their habit...there's many people out there happy to fire up a joint everyday and sit on their butts doing nothing as long as my (and your) tax money is sent to them each month.
My current State of residence recently passed a law requiring Welfare recipients to be drug free in order to receive benefits...the result? A drop in expenditures for food stamps and welfare....they'd rather stay high and addicted than sober up, receive assistance and attempt to change their lives.

That drop in expenditure for foodstamps and welfare will soon be eaten up and surpassed by an increase in expenditure caused by the crimewave that I belive will be the result of such a policy.
Get rid of the money driven economy and the problem will go away.

A nickel for a loaf of bread was back in my grandfather's day ... cheapest I saw a loaf was a quarter, but even $1.79 is 7Xs that quarter (too much) relative to my income.
There are 15 million of us in NJ and if you live in a lower class neighborhood and can't afford to send your kid to parochial school, he's going to get treated like a candy arse by the adolescent gangsters.

PS:
Yes, Lod is right on that issue, those 43 million if cut off from there foodstamps and/or substance are going to become a problem on the street especially with reduced police.

One thing for which I'm grateful is that my X took my kid to go to school in a rural neighborhood ...
only problem with that was that among those farm kids, he was the runt of the class.

rex

Last Edited : Saturday, 15 October 2011 - 14:44

Ok, Lod...perhaps I should start packing my 9mm more often when I leave the house.
I'll keep you posted on the coming crime wave.

Oh...and get rid of a money driven economy, lol...what do you suggest we use....stones? hmmm..wouldn't be fair to those that live in sandy or swampy areas, though....maybe sea shells...oops, no that wouldn't be fair to those living inland....chickens/eggs/milk/meat/vegetables? hmmm..again, it'd be difficult for city dwellers to have livestock or areas to farm...so guess the country/rural folks would have an advantage....damn...'unfair' again, huh?

Perhaps those millions cut-off from their foodstamps, free/reduced cost housing, free cell phones and monthly checks could use the money they spend on designer clothes...1000$ rims for their cars...ipods...gigantic TV's...jewelry...ect....just maybe they'd change their behavior and do as us working stiffs do...only buy what we can afford...and even better...follow some wisdom found in the Bible, concerning lenders and debtors...it goes something like the debtor is a slave to the lender...so adopt my and many others beliefs...save...don't buy so routinely if you're borrowing money in order to do or have what you what. Damn...too bad our government couldn't follow that simple philosophy...only spend what you bring in...better yet...spend less than you bring in and what's the old saying?...."save for a rainy day"....certain advice or rules for living never go 'out of style'...

Drive the same car as I did for over 10 years...repairing it as needed to keep working and save money for a number of years to go in and make a 50% down payment so I could afford to finance the remainder purchase price without endangering my budget or having fears that it might be repossessed if I found myself unemployed or had unexpected emergencies.

Perhaps if they were self reliant they would save money and not spend it as soon as it was received on non-vital purchases...then as me, when Obama care affected my employment and I was laid-off for almost 9 months, I had savings to cover all my expenses AND still purchase my new vehicle.

Perhaps people need to realize they are responsible for themselves...responsible for their good or bad choices...sure we all experience unfair treatment some time during our life at the hands of someone that was a dishonest or unjust supervisor/manager/person in power of our employment...but that's what's great about a capitalistic economy...we can go and take our skills to another employer and prosper again...or better yet, decide to start our own enterprise and reap the rewards of our own labor and ideas.

What you both fail to realize is that even if tomorrow, we all lived in exactly the same house, had the exact same model of car...clothes and our bank accounts were all equal...there'd still be those that would want to take/steal from another. Being equal in 'belongings/wealth' doesn't eliminate greed and envy...doesn't eliminate the desire for power...those will always be constants...because as a whole we are imperfect...some have values/morals/ethics...some will never...

And it's those that don't that create your perceived 'unfairness'....

Last Edited : Sunday, 16 October 2011 - 05:21

What I mean with no money is, no money. Stones or other means of payment is to be considered as money as well.
It would ofcourse mean a BIG change in the way we live today as resources must be estimated up and used in a substaiable way. It works just like your example there with the car funding you can't keep borrowing more and more from future generations, resources can't be used up faster than they reproduce in a the long run. We can either start planning for it now or face an ever decreasing welth as such resources gets increasingly expensive and scarce. That way is a dead end road.
In a non monetary economy we get what we need from the production we all own together. Crime will not be a big issue anymore since everyting you will need is there for all. So how do we motivate people to work and achive ? I said it before, we promote them to diffrent levels of ranks much like in the army. With higher ranks comes diffrent benefits.
I realise this isn't the final solution, it's a vision that needs a lot of work and thought, something to work on. I also realise this will not happen anytime soon. Give it a century or two. Capitalism was good for the 20th century but now it's the 21th the industrial oil age is comming to an end. A new system will be needed as people nowadays are more informed as news spread with the speed of the internet. The world is shrinking wether you like it or not today we are more dependent on and linked to everyting going on in this world.
Either we change or we go under, possibly in a big bang...

I had hoped to keep my mouth shut and stay out of this but some of us live in this country and are actually seeing first hand what is going on and what isn't so let me give a little insight into it and maybe there will be a little better understanding
1. Before 2 monthes ago anyone could get food stamps by simply applying with a birth cert. and a social security card and 2 pieces of mail to verify thier address or a letter vouching for thier residency (should they live in a shelter or group home or half way house) and a valid picture ID
2. 2 monthes ago Govener Scott decided it was way to much money being spent on food stamp and welfare and it came from 3 specific groups I won/t name them cause the way they sound could make me sound prejiduce and I really am not. So he and his staff and I and alot of people even believe if he drug tests those people randomly that would be a way to legally take their benfits away and force them into job training and back into the workforce.
"I am not trained to do the job I want so I would rather not work" that was what alot of them said so they will get a choice of training and back to the workforce.
Plus their names will be turned in for people to watch for drug activity.
Now the financial aspect of this conversation I will say this a few of you know what happened to me YES the banking systems do Sux but as long as you deal only with the FDIC Insured banks your Great!!! I have used an FDIC bank locally for 30 years and whenever i have had an issue they instantly either stop payment or refunded my money to my acct. never charged me for it and when i have had an issue with someone washing my check and changing the amount on it and trying to cash it. The bank caught it and called me first to ask if they should cash it or arrest her.Now all my other money I had no say in what bank it went in and the bank was not an FDIC insured bank and 4 years ago when the banks were closing left n right I lost BBBBBBBBIGGGGGG
it so bad I think that is what gave me the heart attack I had 2 monthes later. So the thought here is why get so worked up unless you live there? and you really can not imagine what it is like till it happens to you. And i say yes get all the dope heads off walfare n foodstamps and cut it back. If they want to kill thier own bodies and die doing it drugs I AM NOT GOING TO PAY FOR IT!! and help them with thier assisted suicide. sorry if this is to blunt

Last Edited : Sunday, 16 October 2011 - 17:46

Comment: Edited...due to mistaken identity. Thanks, TR!

Kudos to you on stating that you think it wrong to 'enable' welfare recipients to continue their drug use/unproductive lifestyle at our expense. I agree wholeheartedly...
If bad behavior is overlooked or rewarded....you get more of it...in contrast, if good behavior/achievement generates rewards...then we see more of that....simple, huh?

But that's exactly where the bleeding hearts/leftists/socialists disagree...they want to make excuses...oh...they turned to crime because of their environment...their behavior or lack of achievement was a result of the prejudice they experienced...no, the prejudice they experience is the result of THEIR behavior...

And Lod, no personal offense intended, but I agree...it'll take a 100 or 200 years to 'invent' something that no one can describe today as an alternative to a measured system of exchange for labor and materials. Personally, I don't see it...just like the majority of your 'to be admired' protesters...their simplistic and dumfounded response to the question of what should replace capitalism usually is senseless babbling or "I don't know but capitalism is unfair."
Sure it's unfair to them...they want it all now...without the investment of their time, effort or whatever wealth/income they may have...they want what they want...but ask any of them that are actually students to give up their high/passing course grade to someone that received a low/failing grade and they'll quickly respond, "NO...that isn't fair"...I worked hard, studied and missed this party or wasn't able to do this in order to get that grade...there's a life lesson staring them in the face.

You reap what you sow....no one has a right to the labor of someone else.....period.

Last Edited : Monday, 17 October 2011 - 10:04

IF capitalism worked the way that you are sugggesting, it would still be ok. (You only need to work hard and you will do well, idea) The thing is that it no longer does. It has passed it's best before date. There is no longer any competition in many branches because the bigger companies are getting so big that noone can compete anymore. They also buy into eachother and in that way creates oligopols and monopoles. A handful of bankers are ruling the whole show.
You could compare them with a black hole, they are so heavy that they suck in everyting that comes close enough and it's an accelerating motion. The bankers are enslaving whole countries already today. Do you think they will stop growing?
There will be, if there isn't already, a world government to come. The world will be ruled by a group of bankers. It might not be officially so but as they run the monetary systems, no one does anything without they saying it's ok. They already blackmail governments, threatening to move, or actually do move, their operations elsewhere if their terms aren't accepted. Big buissiness pays practically no tax in many places.
This is why capitalism has to go.

The protests seem to me to be about the fact that the system isn't working for anybody but the super-wealthy. If you live in a system that doesn't allow you to make a living no matter what you try to do the system will get changed one way or another. Blaming poverty on the poor is ass-backwards since the vast majority of the money has been unscrupulously taken by what amounts to (and in many cases is) criminal practices by those with the money.

If the world can find ways to regulate and redistibute the wealth such that hard work is truly rewarded and inherited and corporate wealth doesn't call the political tune we will all benefit. Demonizing those who call for change as "welfare queens" and the like is pointless. Maybe someday when smug householders are living on the street due to foul banking practices (like now!) and through no fault of their own they will be less likely to defend corporatist practices.

OK, you can now ignore my sage comments and get back to your rehearsed speeches. Don't cry about it when the power takes away your biscuits, though. You will have had a chance to change things peacefully, but sooner or later that won't be an option.

As usual...attack those that have succeeded instead of using your efforts to become a success.

What's not working is corrupt government in bed with BIG business. Why do you think the bail outs went to Wall Street corps...why do you think most of the current administrations staff was previously directly associated/employed by Wall Street? Is it any wonder when they couldn't turn a profit on all those loans made to unqualified people at the government's direction that they would then turn back to the same government and ask/demand reimbursement/bail outs?! The system works perfectly only until corrupt politicians crawl in bed with the corps. GE is a perfect example....bail outs/basically free tax payer loans when they've made huge profits and paid NO taxes. Obama is in bed with GE and Emmelt. It's simple and easy to see...the corps 'buy/endorse/donate' to the politician/party they want so in return they receive big paybacks at taxpayer expense or what's the popular word used....investments in our future, lol.

And something for thought....just how long has the current terrible economic situation been going on?....is there no correlation to any certain party in control of the government?

Small business still creates 3/4ths of new jobs and apparently most people are doing just fine. What's the unemployment rate of college educated persons?...less than 5%.

For the last 50 years we've spent a fortune in welfare benefits to 'raise' the poor...has it worked? No...facts must be faced...a certain portion of the population desires nothing more than to continue from one generation to another, living as a government beneficiary.

I've worked in the 'poor' community for approx 30 years...selling/servicing personal insurance and during the last 15 years directly with the delivery/enrollment of government provided healthcare/welfare programs. I'm old enough now to have seen the majority of these individuals have no desire to raise or change their circumstances. One generation follows the previous with exactly the same feeling of entitlement...sure there's a small percentage that actually take responsibility for their life and change from the ways of their previous generation....but sadly, most do not....routinely...it's the blame game...there's always someone else responsible for their standing....not themselves.

And Mog, not to single your comments out but..."the vast majority of the money has been unscrupulously 'taken' by what amounts to (and in many cases is) criminal practices by those with the money."
Can you present some examples of 'the wealthy' criminally taking 'the vast majority of the money' from the poor?

Last Edited : Monday, 17 October 2011 - 10:39

"As usual...attack those that have succeeded instead of using your efforts to become a success."

I'm attacking only those I see as using unfair practices to take a reasonable standard of living away from the mass of people. I have no problem at all with people succeeding, as you seem to imply. However, HOW one succeeds is also a thing to be debated. If what one does for a living is really despicable to any average person, do they deserve to be elevated to high status and comfort for their efforts?

Think about the main body or Enron workers. They were told to buy more stock in the company by the executives of the company who were at that same moment divesting themselves of what they knew was going to be a worthless stock portfolio soon! When the company went under, these people, who in some cases were lifetime employees of Enron were suddenly in dire financial straits, no pensions, a bunch of worthless stock and a mortgage. This sort of unfair business practice hurts common people all the time. Is that the workers' fault?

By the way, I've mentioned this before, but do you know that economists agree that a certain percentage of unemployment is necessary for our form of capitalism to work, since wages can be kept low and workers kept scared if there is a class of people who would take the jobs if they could? Since capitalism demands unemployment, shouldn't there be a mechanism to take care of the basic needs of those who for whatever reason can't find work?

What I'm getting at is that blaming poor people and making their lives even tougher isn't a very humane solution to the problem. Actually using resources to train young people in useful careers makes more sense to me than subsidizing an oil company, or having an enormous military sucking up half the tax dollars every year. Solving the problem is the issue, not blaming people for being "lazy", even if it makes you feel superior to point your comfortable finger at them.

I agree with you that corrupt government in bed with big business is a huge problem. Obama (who I voted for, BTW) hasn't played the game any differently than the rest of the $hitheels we've had for Prez lately. It's sad.

As far as "most people doing just fine", I'm curious how you come up with that! There are vast systemic disasters looming and some already here that are keeping people in poverty. Even the average wage earner couldn't last 3 months with a paycheck. The standard of living has been declining steadily since the 70's. A high percentage of children live in poverty. Is that their fault too? Can you blame a 6 year old for being lazy?

And yes, I can point out practices like Enron that take money from the poor and give it to the wealthy who then squirrel it away overseas. Look at what has happened to the wealth of the world in the last 30 years, it has been redistributed to the very small group at the top, far more than in the past. It's not a tenable situation. If only a small group of people have all the wealth then the economy can't run. Nobody buying products equals depression. Ford knew it, he paid his workers enough to buy the products they made. Now, the average worker can't afford a house on a full time work load, often with both husband and wife working.

Well, blah blah blah. Sorry to ramble on so long, this argument is endless anyway.

Although I have advocated auditing/policing of areas where wall street and/or the banks can perform/commit scams for want of a better term, again, I'm not totally against free enterprise and capitalism;

but the fact remains that there are apparently not enough entrepeneurs today willing to risk their money to put enough people to work to offset this current poor state of our economy;

So again, I simply advocate that our government supplement the lack of investment of private enterprise by promoting government owned enterprises with mandates like that of our postal service to simply meet all of their expenses without the need for tax-payer monies while employing thousands of the present folks unable to find work.

rex

Yes Sugar now you have understood it. Politicians and bankers are working together, no politician in the US will ever get elected without the support of the bankers. This is the problem. That is why you should join the protesters. Noone has anything against people working their way up and earning money from their labor. Small buissiness is more than welcome.
Bankers, however earns money not from working they earn in the work of others they collect interest every time a dollar is used, anywhere. Use a CC or any kind of card and they earn even more. They are the same kind of people as slave drivers and mobsters. They want a piece of the action without doing anything for it.

I'm not good with the world's financial affairs .
My observations have been as soon as this recession started
maybe if the companies could ride it out ,,I mean take the good with the bad .
But no , they cant bare to see the profits drop , so staff are pushed to the limit,customer
care then suffers , and so the downward spiral begins.
I've been working in a big, global fast food chain for some time and experienced
,first hand, what the British public and workers have to endure .


I have always taken great pride in my menial work that I do .
If I didn't have my pride I would have no reason to work or even live .
But I feel that I'm the only person in the world sometimes ,,everyone seems to only be interested
in earning their wage and thats it. It's a very sorry time at the moment .


If you choose to be in the 'rat race' ,to go for the big one , buy a house ,car then so
be it but dont moan when your taxes get used for the tasks they have been assigned by
your government. That is to say dont moan at the people who receiving it but moan
at the government who has set it.
It's the governments job to balance everything out correctly .
Unfortunately they dont approach things in the right way due to traditions,stigmatisms,
time honored rules and regulations and bribes and any other reasons.


I Guess from what LOD is saying the government has done the right thing ,and FINALLY the bankers are being held accountable but as should the big companies and have we mentioned football players yet ? celebrities ??

What government are you referring to Hitme?
Footballers and celebs at least work for their money. I have no problems with them earning whatever they can squeeze out of the clubs or filmcompanies. If we consumers want to pay to go see them that's our choice. I would never pay £30 to go see a soccergame though
With the bankers it's another story though, there is now way to avoid paying them off as long as you don't go out and live in the woods away from society

Last Edited : Tuesday, 18 October 2011 - 11:55