I think that scissor troops are underpowered now and their speed doesnt make up for it. I suggest that the scissor medi troops be rasied at least up to normal health.

maybe scouts are pretty good right now bc of the 11 speed but haveing only 2 more speed and 1/8th the health just makes falcs and HC pitiful.probably scouts too

i suggest that we raise the health of scissor troops back up to normal

right now they are pretty useless unless going up against a fully paper army. even then i think it would be close

Yep ...
sure was shocked at the performance of scouts in my first confrontation using them.

rex

the rock and paper troops also all have good powers, while the scissors ehh they are just alright. they need something i dont think the health is enough they are just lacking in everyway.

Yea, I would increase the scissors troop health to be ~the same as the others. Their abilities are a lil weaker, which makes up for their increased move ability, and also Pikes and Maces are designed to counter them so well.

-Biodus-

nah, if you raise em back up and then that's all people will use again. now you've got to be careful with your mounted units, as you should be, and use em as a a way to break lines and strike from farther away, instead of just using them for everything.

makes sense to me.

I agree with ^ector. Scouts are that...scouts. They are not prepared to fight, just "scout." Falch at least have a extra damage special. HC have a very handy special ability that can be devestating, and makes sense. After an initial charge, it makes sense that the HC would get bogged down in standing combat.

I think people were used to scouts dominating the map. Now spears and swords aren't bad options.

Well I agree about the scouts ...
just because I was shocked at their performance doesn't mean I thought it wasn't right and yes I have always thought the game was dominated by them because they were too strong;

but however, I think folks are going to have to be very careful about over-spending on one stack of expert troops that can be over-welmed by cheaper troops and then find themselves starved for troop support.

In other words I think there is a serious gold income shortage or troops are too expensive or both.

rex

Last Edited : Thursday, 23 October 2008 - 14:01

That's got nothing to do with scissors.

Scouts used to dominate, yes, but they did cost more.

As far as cost of troops goes, yes, your armies will be smaller. That puts so much more emphasis on little things like weapons upgrades, tech advantages, and really on your economy, because on this game having that 1500+ gold advantage on your opponent that means an extra stack every turn is absolutely crucial.

It's not better or worse, just different, and it'll take a bit to adapt to.

As far as I'm concerned make scouts at least one point higher in health, leave spearmen where they are and put the cost of scouts at 3000 because if I have to buy two of them now to just barely do the job that one used to do, imho they were worth the 3600 and now not worth the 2000.

rex

Last Edited : Thursday, 23 October 2008 - 16:13

i still think that HC's are vastly underpowered even when fighting knights

HC health was cut practically by half and that's why I said to take a closer look at the stats on the Demonics ...they are much stronger than Medieval in the upper level troops now.

Their weakness having no ranged and a few slightly lower health basics needs to be tested as to whether they are overall more weak than Medi, but I can say from my recent war against a heavily ranged opponent that if the lines that shield the ranged units can be easily broken, ballista can't out-run many units when they have to be retreated.

rex

Im not a fan of bali i much more like marks though they are outranged by one but they have a bigger attack range you know.

I'd love to play Demon vs Medi duels.

I think the Demonic player's advantage lies so much in tier2. Tier1 their troops are weaker (though the fact their Summoners are about equal to spear/scout/swords is nice), tier2 is when you want to strike before tier3 balli show up, because, let's face it, arbs aren't worth it when compared to Scorpies. Also, Demons have late-game strength in the Demigods, something that Medi can only beat with marks.

HC were made a lot weaker and a lot cheaper. You can say Mace were upgraded to tier3 but in reality Falchs, Knights, and HC were all pulled down a tier.

As far as scissors inferiority goes, scissors are designed to deal damage, not take it (damage bonus abilities). Rock's designed to take the damage, especially vs scissors (retal and anti-scissors bonuses) and paper are really designed to breach frontlines by taking less damage in the attack (range and retal resist).

I think we're all used to a game when scissors dominated their classes (Falchs still beat down Advanced-tier troops) and now we're readjusting to a game type when going scissors with rock to beat the other guys' scissors just doesn't cut it.

Another thing is a lot of players are unused to the inability to make as many armies and as such haven't quite worked out the balance between range and melee troops yet. Like I say, give it time.

I agree with your principles mech, but I have to side with dark guy for the time being; give it time, and lets work things out.

The advantage of this system is that all troops are currently even in stats (besides special abilities and movement); the disadvantage is it's not very realistic, interesting, or nuanced. It is, however, the quickest fix that will give us somethign workable; as many of you know I was always railing against the dominance of cavalry, and while this may not be the ideal solution, it will work for the time being while we figure other things out.

I'd like to see more meaningful interactions between troops; scouts having a high attack/damage value but low def/hp relative to the other early troops, spears starting off as very low level troops but gaining power rapidly as they gain levels (well trained spears could devistate other units), maybe give swords bonus attack damage against buildings. Things like this make a real difference, and encourage all units to be considered, but take a while to impliment correctly.

Just bumping up one unit isn't going to may things better, it'll just make them more familiar .

I do agree that having carbon copy units minus abilities isn't a great idea, but with such a drastic overhaul it's probably the fairest way to bring everything in line. Req can tweak the troops at a later date.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with BloodBaron.

Spear stacks used to be what they were in reality - cannon fodder. A spear was cheap and easy to make as it took less metal and skill to make than a sword and therefore even your poorest serf could afford one. However, spears are only any good when they have room to move and even reasonably skilled swordsmen could quickly reduce spears to staves by chopping the points off (there are some v. good Discovery/ History Channel programmes on ancient weapons that demonstrated this). Furthermore, it would take a really brave man to stand up to a cavalry charge (of any sort) armed only with a 6' spear.

The units that were most powerful in medieval time were the Pikemen who were armed with 18' pikes. They were able to withstand even HC charges as their pikes outreached the lances of HC. The (very poor) first battle scene in Braveheart illustrates the effect on HC. Furthermore, on relatively level ground a well trained and disciplined Pike battalion / brigade / shiltron was devastating when attacking other foot soldiers agin due to the reach of their pikes. However, if discipline was not maintained and the pikes became disorganised these pikes could very quickly be reduced again to long sticks and then the pikemen were sitting ducks to anyone and everyone (as was demonstrated in the battle of Flodden Field).

Unfortunately, Pikes are rarely seen here due to their terrible range defence.

well i think the scissor troop change is quite terrible at the moment i would like to see the scissor troops attack and defence put back to how it was when i first signed upto waronline.net only because there health has been weaken and i there speed should be atleast 11 what do you dudes wreckon

This topic is...

Remember how, back before this change, that your average campaign opening was 2x scout, 1x comms, and 1x spear? Scouts dominated combat and to be honest, spears did not do enough to stop them (equal stacks, spears didn't win by nearly enough).

Not to mention that by early midgame, even, spears and swords are obsolete but scouts remained powerful throughout the game, even after falchs and HC showed up. And before you whinge about costs and suchlike, people always managed to be able to afford mace and marks.

We're just used to battles, campaigns, and duels being dominated either by the speed and surprising strength of scouts or the unstoppable juggernaught of HC. Scissors troops got a big nerf in terms of dmg/HP, but they also got a drastic nerf in cost, as well.

Get used to actually having to use paper and rock troops, because right now, Scissors can't be flung willy-nilly into battle. Scissors are designed to deal the damage: not take it.

And, might I add, for all the moaning about scouts, they're still even with swords and spears.

omg, we need to boost paper troops

lol im not sure scouts can stand up in battle anymore at all ,, against a stack off comms , the comms winn 3 to 2 even with the scout having defense and attck techs

Oh, my, lord.

Check the statistics on Commandeers. They aren't weak anymore, they now beat basic troops by a healthy margin. They also cost 1.5x as much. Sheesh.