I seen mog use alot of spears in a game recently, he died by turn 8.

I have a duel coming up with bio and I sure hope he produces alot of spears!

sugar why didn't you produce spears in our game? my ballis sure would have felt alot better!

Dude I'm not talking late game.
But the resources to produce the more advanced stuff from turn 1 is too much. Your better off throwing out some scouts/spears or scouts/swords in the first few turns, then swapping the swords/spears for archers and have scouts/archers.

lol.

Just a point here (not having a go at you):

Battles:
Nebuchadnezer, Coopels, Sage, kingArtur and Biodus are all above you in battles and I know Bio and Neb use spears and swords in battle. Bio has feilded swords against me a few times.

Last Edited : Sunday, 4 November 2007 - 21:00

want to duel?

I would love to meet those that uses mass spear earlier game....

I really love to... Never get enough of them... to kill I meanm


Each of us have our own preferences... But in the higher level game, you can see maceman/balli as early as turn 8... Some even earlier... You can try your mass spear on them and see how you fare then...

AND PS... In battles.. you don't produce troop.
I would say basic level troop usefulness is depending on who you are facing and what he is doing. Try facing any of them Biscuit/Iceman/LOD/Sugar and you will know what I mean

Last Edited : Sunday, 4 November 2007 - 21:02

Gah!
I'm not talking about mass spear. I'm talking about 1/2 units of maybe 3/4 pop early on to bolster your units. Some of the maps take a bit longer to get the resources you need to sustain an early mace/squires production.

So you cannot completely write off spears/sword on every map every time for every scenario like you guys are. lol.

..LONS, the original topic was regarding battles which is why I threw that in there.

Last Edited : Sunday, 4 November 2007 - 21:04

Bah! Swords...never saw a use for them in a battle. It's that odd point they cost that never makes them worth it. Spears? Yes, bring plenty o' spears...and archers.

I'm on one of the new maps for campaigns, and I'm finding it hard to be able to upgrade troops, let alone get mace. Course, the skipped income isn't helping...but I don't think there is enough metal to go around. Makes it more interesting...but I'm still all for scouts vs. spears or swords.

The point is Gaiya, as you said, they're only good for the first 20 turns or so before you upgrade, as you said. We're saying that you start with two units of swords in camps, and they will get you through those first 20 turns. You're welcome to build them, it doesn't make a huge difference, but in the higest level games every inefficiency is meticulously weeded out, and the fat is cut wherever it can be. The fact is, if swords aren't necessary, then why waste a production slot (and a turn of production later on down the line) and reduce the number of scouts and archers (by far the best early troops) you can put on the feild? Can they serve a use? Sure. But there are tactics that will set you up better for the late game in most circumstnaces: I think the point we're all trying to make is that producing swords is by far the exception rather than the rule, but as I said, if it works for you then by all means do it.

Without a doubt if you can do so, produce Archers + something instead of two melee troops (two Archers is stupid and overkill).

Still; without a doubt (unless you are Biscuit who gets Ballista by Turn 2) you can't afford second-tier units in the early phases of the game. Pump out Scouts, who beat down on smaller Scouts, Spears and Swords outright, and when you can Archers.

spears, militia = useless fodder.

You want to take retal. use archers, they take retal from everything, produce fast, are cheap, plus they can always attack ranged, don't need to worry about ZOC.

spears are good in battles as they are the cheapest unit for fodder, but this discussion got to 'producing' spears and swords which means duels and camps. I've tried about every unit and combination of in this game, but I have NEVER in 5 years tried producing spears or swords. I can't imagine why I never tried it!

Gaiyamato!!! Please re-read through your own post and tell me you are talking about BATTLES game???

"I'm not talking about mass spear. I'm talking about 1/2 units of maybe 3/4 pop early on to bolster your units"
- In battle? More than half of your selection as spear/sword? This will be a one sided battle I would say

"to get the resources you need to sustain an early mace/squires production" - Does that sound battle like?

That is from you... It sounds more like camp and duel than Battle... Hahahaa. No offense but that what you sound like. You don't have reources as well as barrack in battle. You pick your lineup from the start... And if your line-up is mass spear/sword, then you are halfway as good as toasted.

Last Edited : Tuesday, 6 November 2007 - 02:11

lol. I think we were referring to different parts of different posts. I misunderstood what you were referring to. It does help if you are clear in this things though.

What about a map where the gold and metal cant be got at until turn 4/5 at least? would you waste ALL your starting resources to produce just a couple of pop of something else?
It would be much wiser to make some spears and save your resources (including gold) for a more gradual approach to the game. I think its silly to rule swords and spears out of the game entirely for all situations, you lack adaptability then.

But of course if you play with huge amount of starting resources OR you have a map where gold and metal are easy to get and are plentiful then they would be silly.
Balli, mace, squires would be much better options for early on.

Scouts, then scouts, then scouts ... until I get resources. Then go for the rest.

The only spears and swords I ever used are the ones that Req has gracefully given at the start of the turn, and I'm so attached to them, that I give them away to die to achieve whatever other menial goal I have.

Last Edited : Tuesday, 6 November 2007 - 02:24

I don't know about you... But EVEN in a resource constrained map... squire/pikes/mace/especially balli is a must within the first 10 turns... else you be pretty much toasted latter on... It depends on how u juggle your resources.

The only exception I know of to forgo all those advance level troop is in a clan game where you have 2 people knocking at your castle door at turn4... That when u don't go for the advance troop.. But then again, if u manage to get those advance troop rolling out, you will have beaten those attacker back... You can ask those with Camp ranking above 300, and I'm sure they will agrees with me...

Thing is Lons I have and they don't all agree.
Not on such a tight comment anyway.

The humble sword and spear have their place in this game, quite regularly, just not a huge one.

Last Edited : Tuesday, 6 November 2007 - 02:26

That's true ... in a clan game you use lower level stacks ... but only scouts ... darn, no place for those pesky low lifes.

Gaiyamato you have your point...

My point is when u rises through the ranks , You will notice those spear/sword will have no place in your choices of troop. Trust me.. You will come to that conclusion. Right now you might beg to differ, that because your range of opponent is nothing much to brag about. You might have one or 2 worthy opponent. But up here in the higher camp, you don't have 1 or 2... All of them are WORTHY opponent and if you want to maintain your rank THEN you will realise that those spear/sword won't even have a place in your initial startup strategy

That my 2 cents... You can choose not to agree with me. But when your campaign breaks 200.. Then you come and tell me whether you still standby your initial view of sword/spear Until then... I still say sword/spear don't stand a chance even against scouts

Problem is the starting resources, and the resource availability.
To begin making squires from turn 1 costs too much unless you only play games with double starting resources.
Even then to make it roll for more than a single turn you need to quickly get 1 metal mines and least 1 gold mine.
For mace from turn 1 you will need 2 metal and at least 1 gold mine.

The only way to do a camp without ever using spears/swords is pure scouts and rush your way to squire and mace if you can gain enough advantage without the higher tech units. OR start with double resources.
Else you can make them but cant buy them.

This kind of strat limits the maps you can play on quite a lot too. Don't you want to be able to play regardless of the game settings?
Be able to adapt your strat a bit?
If you do you cant rule them all out entirely.

LOL...

I think I know your problem...

You don't make anything at all from turn 1... Even the fastest someone can make mace/balli is around turn 4or5... Can't remember. (That is do-able. Tried b4. You want Statistic then ask from Sugar or LOD)... and you can see the first stack of mace/balli at turn 8... that the fastest I seen before... It even documented in the forum but I think you need some deep digging

When u produce mace/squire/watever in your barrack, It don't automatically means you can recruit them outright. You still need for it to slowly fill up and that usually takes a few turns to do. And you don't send out a 1 pop mace as it's not effectively enough... Usually a 3-4 pop at least.

You will be hard pressed when you start to see balli/mace unit at turn 10 approaching your castle and you only started to tech them in your barrack... I'm sure you haven't seen that yet in the lower level game but do try the higher one and you will see what I mean. Or go against player like Sugar and LOD and BigAmigo/Raptor (If they still here) and you will know what I mean. Don't ever go against Biscuit/Ice as they will simply overwhemlm u with scouts. They are all one big bully lol

Hope it clear up a bit when they mean teching earlier on.

Agree here.

Let your scouts build up, then invest in higher level. Switch over. Let troops pile up, and then deploy.

Makes no sense to invest your gold in a stack of 1 squire or 1 mace ... they only serve their purpouse in higher numbers.

You want ZOC control, retal. control, then use a scout, or an archer.