This is only my second thread in this forum because I haven't really had a unique strategy that might not be common knowledge, but I have been feeling slightly unethical about having knowledge of an omnipotent strategy that literally causes me at least in the six-player game to gain a tremendous advantage in technology and I'm fairly certain that a handful of others may have this knowledge;

But I'm not certain that they have capitalized on it to the extent that I have. Like the knight causes his opponents to tremble in fear, unable to retaliate, this strategy causes your opponents to be striken by poverty and unable to match your spending power.

It's not cheating ... it is just making use of the market feature as soon as possible to at least a level that causes you to literally "corner the market" and to be able to horde a huge sum of gold. It works to some degree in all games, but it is especially potent in the resource rich six-player games.

There is more to know about it and I repeat that it's not cheating, but at least I feel better that I have shared the basics of this knowledge with all of you. The rest you will have to learn yourself unless others are willing to share their knowledge here.

TaurusRex

Last Edited : Monday, 5 February 2007 - 10:26

PS:
I just saw that Sugarleo has first used the phrase "corner the market" in his post in the thread I started entitled "Market Tech (expert trading)" in the question forum.

"Corner the market" is a common phrase and it just came to my mind as a polite title. I really didn't read all the way to the bottom of Sugar's thread and I did miss that he referred to the phrase "corner the market". I read just up to the part where he insists there is nothing wrong with the market.

As I have agreed it's not cheating, but however, because I had inadvertently used in the title of another thread that I closed, the common phrase associated with the stock market (that is, that Sugarleo used first), and I can't now change it;
I've closed that other thread and re-titled it in this thread because "corner the market" doesn't actually cover the strategy anyway that I have originally felt is slightly unethical to use if everyone is not aware of it and even though it's not cheating;

and because of this difference and not wanting to be labeled a plagiarist, I am now forced to explain my strategy in full;
So I've started this thread and closed the other one. I've added and edited these first two posts from that other thread though to give credit where credit is due and to conform them to this thread.

TaurusRex

Last Edited : Monday, 5 February 2007 - 10:40

Anyway here's the difference in the strategy I use in the six-player game concerning the market. Knowing that there are plenty of resources out there and that I'm going to get my fair share of them, I strip my castle almost completely which I know is nothing new;

I get the market built as fast as I can and then I even tech up to be able to sell 500 resources at a time (originally thinking it was just a convenience, but realising later that it even brings a still better price).

Here's where I was feeling that it seems a little unethical, but as long as everyone knows about it, my conscience is clear:

I deliberately try to *"kill the market"* So that my opponents won't get the benefit of good prices for their resources. I sell everything short of the resources I need to build my buildings and get the tech I need to continue.
I raise as much as over 30000 in gold initially as soon as I get "Advanced Trading" and I continue to buy tech;

and as Sugarleo has mentioned, I upgrade all of my barracks to advanced melee and even expert melee in at least one and expert archery in the one I build;
and then I get expert training in all of them as soon as I can (that is, actually I get it after the advanced melee though).

Before I'm done I am even able to get master training in at least two barracks. I have over sixty armies in Skirmish 28 right now, but I'm third because the others are at war now and I'm not. I guess I'm going to have to challenge them all.

However, I don't stop there because as soon as I'm able, I buy the "Expert Trading" and I continue to sell with the goal to get the best possible prices while deliberately trying to *"kill the market"* for all of my opponents.
I keep checking to see the price offerred for 200 resources with all the market tech I have and when it gets down to less than 200 gold, I'm fairly certain that I have succeeded to *kill it* and yet I'm still able to get a descent price with "Expert Trading" selling 500 gems at a time in later turns while most of my opponents cannot now even afford to buy the necessary market tech to compete.

I still think it's unethical and in need of change, but as has been said, (that is, that if you don't take advantage of it, someone else will);
and again, it's not cheating;
it's just gettiing the most out of the feature.
I have discussed this with Requiem a couple of weeks ago, So please don't hate me for it.

TaurusRex

Last Edited : Monday, 5 February 2007 - 10:53

TR, I think you've just discovered recently what many players already knew.

Every game I enter, I attempt to have the first market built to get the highest selling prices for perhaps a turn or two before other markets are built and the additional trading of other players start to impact the sell prices.

So even though it appears you weren't aware of the benefits of teching up on the market, I'm sure most other players knew (at least those have have been around for a while or had the advice of a vet).

Just as it's a race to upgrade your barracks to have a better class of troops than the other guy, my experience with the market is that other players are teching up and selling all excess resources except those needed to buy upgrades, techs and deploy troops. As other features, it's a balancing act...sell the maximum you can to gain gold but maintaining enough in reserves with current resource income to buy the techs, upgrades and deployment of armies.

From the description of your experience, it appears that whoever you were playing with in your game, just wasn't aware of the market benefits, allowing you to continue to receive high trading prices....that wouldn't happen if you were in a game with me and most other high ranked players. After a few turns of trading, we would all start receiving those lower returns on sales.

That was the basis of my suggestion for the 'corner the market' additional tech that would allow at least a 1.5 gold to 1 resource return on all trades after active trading by multiple players in the game have crashed the prices.

LOL. TR, will you stop posting my strategies for winning games? How else will I ever get an advantage if you keep telling everyone about some of these more intricate subtleties of the game?

I'm not so sure Sugar and I think I've said too much already, but I have to leave in about an hour and I'm not ready yet so I can't discuss this with you in depth;

But I'm just going to say that I've been aware of the benefits of the market and the market tech for a long time and even did a flow chart of VivaChe's economic strategy.

Admittedly in the past I've only gone to "Advanced Trading" not willing to go for the cost of the "Expert Trading" and to be perfectly honest I find it to be doubtful that until the six-player game that very many if any players did go for the "Expert Trading" simply because the market was already sufficiently killed by "Advanced Trading" and the cost of the "Expert Trading" was too exhorbitant;
Yes I have found that the six-player game makes "Expert Trading" worthwhile (that is, if it can be afforded and if someone hasn't already *"killed the market"*).

Sugar I have prided myself in being able to get "Tax Reform" by turn four admittedly stemming from VivaChe's thread, but even he doesn't get it in his thread until turn 6. Anyway I'm no stranger to being among the first to be able to get the market built and I'm saying that the six-player game does make it very important.

I'm also saying it comes down to who can get the market built first and use it.

I know more than you think I know Sugarleo and more than you seem to be willing to give me credit for knowing.
Sorry and I'm now sorry I even discussed it because I know that I'm right (that is that the abundance of resources in the six-player game makes it possible for the first person to take advantage of the market to literally "kill the market" and so accummulate such an abundance of gold that he can far surpass the tech of his opponents).

That wasn't possible before on the scale it is possible now in the six-player game ... sorry. Yes I have used the market and found that it has gone cold in other games, but not to the point where it has caused me to be overwelmed by my opponent with vastly superior technology.
I have to go now.

rex

Last Edited : Monday, 5 February 2007 - 11:45

PS:
Careful Biscuit ... there's someone else habitating the forums actually named "TR" now without the quotes of course.

rex

TR, I'm not trying to insult your game experience or knowledge. No intent of that whatsoever.

But you just said: "Admittedly in the past I've only gone to "Advanced Trading" not willing to go for the cost of the "Expert Trading" ..."

That statement proves that you have had limited experience for the time you've been here in using the market. My statement stands that 'most' players have and will continue to use the market to it's fullest possibilities and realize the benefits of purchasing the expert trading tech as quickly as possible. If you think other players haven't been doing that in the past, you're mistaken. The wise player only makes limited sells until the expert trading has been purchased to realize the most profit from trading.

You stated you believe the price for expert trading is too costly...I disagree with that as well...I've used all the gold I had at times to get the tech, then quickly sell off resources to recoup and add to my gold reserves. From your comments, it was just a feature that you had not routinely used to the maximum benefit as many of us have.....different players=different tactics and playing methods.

Just as you mentioned being proud of purchasing Tax Reform quickly....I rarely purchase that tech until much later in the game. That just serves as a further example of the many paths different players use to be successful.

Being first to build the market and make trades doesn't necessary mean you've stopped the other in game players from benefiting from building....just means you'll receive better sell prices until the market becomes active with additional players trading.

If your experience leads you to believe that one player can build a market and then make so many trades that the prices crash before others have a chance to do it, just tells me that all the other players in that game didn't know how to use the market....and that has not been my experience.

Last Edited : Monday, 5 February 2007 - 12:47

In the past Sugar I have been unwilling to purchase the "Expert Trading", but ***not now in the six-player game because it has become worthwile to purchase it.***

I'm not saying anymore, but because of statements like: my "limited experience", I'm going to say that I think you guys are taking bows for something that I have found about the six-player game and feel is unethical enough that I only feel right if everyone has a fair chance at it;

and I repeat that the strategy to which I refer was not possible on the scale it is possible now before the six-player game.
We only got the six-player game this past September.

Sorry the strategy is to deliberately try to *"kill the market"* and so cripple the economic advantage of the other players and I have discussed it with Req a couple weeks ago.

In the past it did not give a significant advantage and players tended to prefer the rush strategy.
In the six-player game it gives an overwelming tech advantage and so is a must. The distances are too great to run a successful rush if the player has sufficiently researched his tech.

That was not possible before on the scale it is possible now, but probably possible now in all games where double resources are allocated when creating the game.

Why did it take you so long to post about it Sugar in the "Market Tech (expert trading)" thread ... been experimenting in the six-player game?

rex

Last Edited : Monday, 5 February 2007 - 12:46

I'm in a 6 player game now, TR and just purchased the expert trading tech and sold off resources raising 15K gold and using it to tech and upgrade. If the other players don't use the market, then yep...their spears, scouts and archers will soon be meeting my falchs, mace and ballistas. But its NOT unethical or cheating...it's simply using the feature available. If the other guy buys tax reform or advanced weapons/defense techs before getting expert trading and putting it to work, he'd better be making an early rush to take a castle or he's gonna have problems later. It's all strategy and tactics.

TR, it's no big secret that if 6 players are playing on a map designed origionally for 12 that you would have an abundance of resources....c'mon man, anybody that's played one knows that...this isn't some fantastic discovery.

Of Course, the use of the market would be more vital in a resource rich environment versus a 10 or 12 player regular map...don't think it'd take someone too long to realize that.

The map is different, so you adjust your research....it's that simple. And you ask, why haven't I posted about it...well, to be perfectly honest...I expected ANY player with ANY knowledge of the market to adjust without me having to inform them.

TR, I'm not attempting to insult you in any way, so my comments are not intended to be misunderstood as a personal attack on you.

I just don't think I'm the only player out there that knows how to use the market, even though it appears you think there are many that weren't aware. And if there were a few, after they read this they should certainly be informed now.

Last Edited : Monday, 5 February 2007 - 13:24

Sugar,
I'm almost ready to go, but as you mention, I no longer worry about getting the tax reform on turn four.

I will say this though Sugar ... in the six-player game, this strategy that I speak of in this thread is now a must contrary to your idea that it "isn't some fantastic discovery" and now i'm going to use one of your type comments.

For you to say that this "isn't some fantastic discovery", I'm not so sure you are aware of the full consequences of someone using this strategy discussed by me here ahead of you.

I repeat that in the six-player game it is a must ... not something that can be maybe I'll do it and maybe I won't, but if I do it ahead of everyone else, they may not be able to do it.

There's something you are missing about this strategy Sugar, but I'll let you learn the rest on your own.

rex

Exactly, TR...we are agreeing if you haven't noticed.

I fully agree that if a player doesn't build a market and use it in the six player map as quickly as he/she can, they will be putting themselves at an extreme disadvantage.

My disagreement is IF players ARE building markets and trading, no ONE player can use it without the others benefiting as well.

You seem to think or imply (perhaps I'm misunderstanding you), that the first one with the market wins...and that's not the case.

That would only happen if after 10 or more turns one player has moved out into the field, taken a majority of the resource piles on the map, while NO other player is doing so and doesn't build a market...then...of course, the ONE player that does WILL dominate.

Same could be said if One player uses their turns and the others do not, then that player will win.

I do know one thing for sure. If anybody else is reading all this, they won't be the last to build a market.

There's nothing broken about the market system, it's there to be used, if a player chooses not to, they will probably change their mind before the next game.

*checks old notes about forum debates* reads...Don't get into a long debate or conversation with TR....

Last Edited : Monday, 5 February 2007 - 14:17

Marketplace ? what is that? I thought we were supposed to stock pile resources?

wait wait a sec, (noob here) does the change of the price for sell/buy on the market when I do a trassaction, affect all players market????? I really thot they were independent for each player!! or did I read wrong?

the market affects everyone in the game..

hehe well done Rex. although it is a fairly clear strategy there will always be some that haven't considered it or understood it's importance in the 6 player games at least. it's worth mentioning it here because it hasn't been discussed much.

one thing that interests me is that the change in the number of players on the map caused a reasonable shift in strategy. it would be nice to have a few more different maps to play on so that there are more opportunities to try different strategies.

anyone, I'm working on a 6 player map now that hopefully, with Req's review and approval could be in use soon.

Thanks Anyone,
but actually because I credited you with this strategy in the "Market Tech (expert trading)" thread, I forgot to credit you with it here.

Folks I learned this strategy from Anyone (better known as Street Gang by most vets). I went after him with basic troops in the early innings of a six-player game and he came back with macemen, knights and marksmen.

I went whoa ... he had to get a 30000 gold jump to come back with that many expert and master units that fast and then I figured out how he did it and the best part was that the market was next to dead and I had thousands of resources that I just refused to give away at less than 100 gold.

Here's the catch though folks. This strategy is a dangerous risk.

If you are not proficient at getting your market built and at least one of the market tech, you may be wasting your time trying to compete with experienced players who can get it done more quickly;
So before you go investing in Advanced and Expert Tech, test to see the price that's being paid for 200 resources. Always make sure the return will warrant the investment.

I'm still saying that this strategy is dependent on being first to get the cream of the prices and having plenty of resources to turn over. That's the catch ... the regular games just don't have that much extra resources to sell (that is, not enough to raise 30000 or 40000 gold within the first five turns.

This is why I think I should present this to Req under bugs as a poorly balanced feature for the six-player games that can leave players scraping the bottom and unable to get a descent price for their resources and not even able to afford to buy the tech to get a better price.

rex

LOL, it's not possible to gain 40K gold, even in the resource rich 6 player map by turn 5.

This isn't a bug! No veteran player can build a market and tech up any faster than a newb. If that's possible, then that's the bug.

I would think that every player would purchase taxes for their first tech...then if you immediately go towards expert trading, your next four tech purchases would be Commerce, Marketwares, Advanced Trading and then Expert Trading...5 turns minimum...passing by tech purchases such as military, advanced training...or archery...that's the risk. I've never gone directly to Expert Trading without purchasing all or some of those other techs along the way and wouldn't recommend it to anyone else.

Test the price for 200 resources?! There's no need to test anything...build the market and tech up as quickly as you can, period....the techs will certainly pay for the investment, that's no question. When the market starts showing action and the prices start dropping...sell, sell, sell...same as in the real world...if you're holding a bunch of shares and the market price is dropping...join the crowd.

You contradict your own advice...you say be cautious and test the price but then say successful trading is dependent on being first to get the best prices. So which is it?

Lets look at your choices, TR....Wait, be cautious in research and trading and let the other guy build his marketplace and then go after him with basic troops and meet mace, knights and marks as you said happened to you or build the marketplace as quickly as you can and tech up.....hmmm, let's see...wait and get my butt kicked by more advanced troops OR build a mp and research to at least advanced trading as quick as I can.....hmmmm, that's tough.....I think I'll go with the mp and research instead of the butt kicking. j/k

It's NO bug or poorly balanced feature...it's just poor judgement and economic strategy IF you don't build a mp and tech up to advanced trading as quickly as you can in the 6 player maps. In other games, it's not as crucial.

Last Edited : Monday, 5 February 2007 - 22:47

perhaps something else that's reasonably clear but not necessarily obvious to some - run as hard and fast as you can towards your opponents resource piles. this is now especially important since you have a choice of move and move again or move and attack. don't worry about attacking the resource piles near your own castle if it means it will slow you down. you have to be very aggressive about it. you can get the resources near your own castle with your 2nd or 3rd wave of troops.

every resource pile you take near your opponent's castle is one extra for you and one less for them.

in the 6 player map it's a case of the quick and the dead.

i don't like the 6 player map personally. there's too much distance between castles. it was a quick fix to produce smaller games with our dwindling membership. i hope your map is better sugar and gets Req's acceptance. the map editor has been around for a long time but i haven't seen a map designed by a player get accepted yet. Req's maps are normally extremely well thought out imho.