ZOC Changes...

ZOC is now a blocking ZOC, that blocks passage between enemy troops, instead of just moving past a troop.


there are 2 types of ZOC hexes now.
1. ZOC1 (Standard) - there is only ONE troop next to the hex.
2. ZOC2 - there is TWO or MORE troops next to the hex.

the rule is, you cant move from a ZOC2 to a ZOC1 at all, or from a ZOC1 to ZOC2.

this means, if there are 2 or more troops next to a HEX, you cant move to another HEX that is next to an enemy army.

the only way to move off a ZOC2 hex (there are 2 enemy troops next to you), is by moving onto a hex where no enemy troop is adjacent. this means you can block a passage with 2 troops, and even surround an army and prevent it from escaping...

Last Edited : Wednesday, 19 November 2003 - 19:21

so ultimately, 1 troop can never block another.

you need at least 2 troops to block someone.

remeber though, you can still move from a ZOC2 hex to a non-ZOC hex (no enemy troops next to it), and vice versa.

just an update...
there was a typo in the original post...

it SHOULD have read,

"the rule is, you cant move from a ZOC2 to a ZOC1 at all, or from a ZOC1 to ZOC2."

So you can move from a ZOC1 to another ZOC1? Same unit I can understand perhaps, but directly to another ZOC1 of a different unit? And why?

Just a guess on my part, but because the game is technically still in testing. It's a labor of love for Requiem and changes will be ongoing for a while yet.

Req, Thanks for the email. I think that was a great idea to send one out. Hopefully everyone moves it to a safe folder if on MSN as mine was filtered and I found it in junk mail. Next one's coming in the inbox!

Stop all ZOC is best!

we need to work with req and his new idea, and then figure out what the best ZOC is

I applaud Req for his attempts to improve the game, however this is one change that I feel will not help the game.

Most good wargames have what is referred to as "locking" zones of control. That is what was in place. Also, if you do not like it, this game is very good in that you can "overrun" the unit blocking you. A small unit blocking you can be attacked and you will not lose all your battle points or movement if it is too small.

To refer to other of Requiems posts. he does not want a game where logging in more gains you an advantage. Yet this is just what this provides! If I have 100 Heavy Cavlary and you have 50 separmen that want to move by, you can!

I am trying to block you and I do not log in with my 100 HC, I can't! You just walk right by. This is will have a huge efect on castle entrances. Imagine the 100 Heavy Cavalry in one tower would not block the 50 spearmen that can walk right by? That is not reality or how most of the good games that I have seen. Those that ignore ZOC like this lead to more anarchy battles with little ZOC haing any effect which makes for less stragegy and more plain war. Archer units will be MUCH more vulnerable.

Also this means more stacks are needed and more smaller stacks. In these games that leads to more confusion and management of small stacks to take advantage of these new rule changes, not for better effectiveness.

I strongly suggest this rule change NOT be kept, and we look at other changes instead. Thanks for trying, but let's not trifle with this key positive ingredient to the game.

Last Edited : Saturday, 22 November 2003 - 00:56

A second thought to this, which may be a compromise if forced. If the reson to add this rule is to stop the small 5 pop armies from blocking, then perhaps a simple test can be added.

An army can block if its offense adjusted score is greater than the defense score of the army trying to attack. So 100 Heavy Cavalry would block 50 spearmen, but 50 spearmen would not block 100 Heavy Cavalry. A little more complicated, but more fair perhaps.

Last Edited : Saturday, 22 November 2003 - 00:58

Corflu, even under old ZOC rules a unit could get past a unit in a tower to enter the castle if there wasn't
1) a structure in the way
or
2) another unit to help control ZOC

in truth I prefer the old zoc rules too, but there is not a huge difference with the new zoc rules. It merely requires a slightly different method of deploying your troops to block an area off.

some interesting points Corflu.

dont forget that in the new version, there will be far more army objects than now. the rules will be changing, and there will be more focus on troop choice and formations, rather than just who has the larger army.

with that in mind, a pass-through ZOC (this new one), is probably better as there will be more troops, slower movement in close combat, and so needing at least 2 troops to block is probably a good thing.

blocking with only 1 army, even if its the same size, is a bit too easy to block. also meaning you can block off areas with far less troops and less concern for formation.

Maybe Corflu's block only if logical thingy may work...

I mean 50 spearmen should block 50 HC though...because there are many...maybe just use numbers see if blocking takes place....

100 spearmen should block 50 HC....makes sense I hope...even though the HC Offence is greater than the 100 spearmen...

*sigh* such a poor explaining from me...sorry

The idea is use numbers to calculate a block....

ZOC2 could also happen if one stack has 2 times as many troops to an adjacent enemy stack perhaps...

Requiem, I request that the game not be made too complicated. One of the joys of this game is that is is simple, yet flows very well.

I fear adding a ton of formations and footnotes will not aid the game, but will just make it more complex and less enjoyable and harder to get new people here.

I think by shoring up a few of the other rules rather than drastically changing a fundamental may be the way to go here. I see that there will be people blowing right by strong armies to decimate archer units.

Last Edited : Saturday, 22 November 2003 - 12:44

whenever there was a change in gamplay implemented, lots of players deemed the rules to become too complicated. but they just had to get used to it -- and it was okay again.
waronline has seen a lot of changes and improvements. and even though id say that not all changes were improvements, i can assure you that waronline has never been too complicated to learn and or play.
and im confident that that wont change.

a ZOC is necessary to prevent an attacker from slipping past hordes of armed and able troops that stand by idle (because their general -- the player -- is offline) and butchering the ranged forces behind the idle 1st line of defenders.
thats been too easy and unrealistic.

however, if blocking becomes too effective, it might also be 'exploited' to create unrealistic situations, like a few very weak units delaying a much, much more powerful force far too long. so perhaps the recent changes will be a good ones.

the blocking rules have been explained by req in 2 or 3 sentences, if i recall correctly. that is not too complicated, i think.

Last Edited : Saturday, 22 November 2003 - 15:15

yea, also remember we wont have 50 and 100 pop armies.
a normal human army is 10 pop max.

and to have 1 army, even if at the max 10 pop, be able to block any and all other armies that try to pass just doesnt sound right to me.
its too easy to block with just 1 army.

thats why this new ZOC might be better.
you need 2 armies or more to block troops.
its not hard to figure out, it just means you need 2 or more to block troops, and you cant spread them out too thin like before.

to me, thats a bit fairer and more strategic.
i guess we'll have to wait and see how it goes.

I am willing to give it a try, however I REALLY hope you will listen and if people do not like it, as I have already heard a number of times, you are willing to put it back to how it was. There are too many holes with this change it seems. More spread out units is good sometimes, but for this game it seems like trying to make rules work differently and with more trouble for something that is already working well. Again I suggest that there be some calculation where a large army can restrict a smaller one somehow.

I'm going to add my opinion here which is to agree with Morbius. I'm sorry IMO there is nothing complicated at all about learning this game.
I have been up to level 41 and down to level 23 and back up again and have never read the manual. I learned well enough to play in one day just by left clicking around to see what happens without even ever asking a question.

The only thing complicated about the game is what Req has to do to make it work and no one can blame him for "cutting corners or taking shortcuts" if he thinks it will save him some time and effort and as long as the final result is good.
In other words if something simplifies things for him then fine but this idea that the game is too complicated is not so IMO.

TR

im new to this game, but ill add my opinion anyway... ive played other hex/turn based strategy games and their blocking systems seem to make far more sense... i played a game recently and had my 3 blockers spaced out slightly so they formed a sort of triangle which i believed blocked the 2 paths which the enemy was coming up... unfortunatly, they were spaced just so that all but 1 hex ended up as a ZOC1... my foes HC just walked rite thru 3 blockers and killed off 10 marksmen who were being protected by the blockers.... it ended up costing me 30 marksmen, a few squires, and a strategic position(eventually the battle) b/c the HC basically just stutter stepped thru my armies and sliced them to pieces... this seems rather unrealalistic to me and contradicts all other similar games' styles... i understand your point of 5 stacks holding up much larger more powerful stacks for ridiculous amounts of time but i dont think this is the solution... perhaps you could program stacks of 20+ to reduce movement in ZOC1 by 50%, stacks of 40+ reduce movement by 75%, and ZOC2 is still blocked...... this would make it difficult to manuever straight thru the enemy lines to their ranged units and it would promote flanking since moving around a large wall of troops would cause you to take a beating from archers... it also solves the problem of stacks getting held up by 5 stacks.... oh and 1 more thing, for castles, it could be an added 25% movement cost to manuever past a stack in towers

As an avid "hex" board wargamer, I have a lot of experience with different games, rules and methods of play. For an online game, and admittedly I'm new to this one, I think that fewer units is better, and rapid movement is better. ZOC should be normal blocking in all cases. A lot of games implement an "overrun" rule, which allows a force that is, say, 5 times larger/stronger to "overrun" the blocking unit (may cost some movement points) and continue moving. But in general if you have a sufficent force to block, it should block it's own hex and the hexes around it.

There has been some talk of adding more units and making formations more meaningful in this game, but I think adding additional units to manage and move would actually hinder the playability of the game, sacrificing ease of play for more realisitic formations. It's hard to have both a macro and a micro management system in one game, so I would suggest not to try, but rather just keep the current macro system in use.