Drat! he's found out my campaign strategy....

Well it seems to have worked a few times in Zander's case at least

But it is a pretty lousy strat. Marks can be justified as a rush-to unit, but a good sized pike army (especially with ranged and sacrifice unit help) will decimate a lone HC force.

Hahaha, imagine my shock to see this thread still up after all these years: a true testament to how little you people use the strat forum .

At any rate, I think it was a good thread then, and can be a good thread once again, since the posts here are usually infrequent (not to mention boring). This is really a chit-chat thread about strategy related topics, with a few other topics and quip remarks on the side . The drinks I offer are suggestions about off topic things, usually other threads in other forums: while I’m not the forum monger I was before, I’ll do my best to serve them up . Here’s a list of topics to choose from to get us started, but feel free to offer up your own.

By all accounts I’m a fairly reasonable and rational person, with few superstitions or quirks, but one thing that hasn’t changed in all these years is my thoughts on HC in battle games . I still never use them in custom battles, mainly out of spite (I’ll admit it ), because I resent what they did for people’s use of tactics read my previous posts here) and to prove that it can be done . In higher pt games, mainly the 6k, I think you probably have to go with at least 1 HC, but I always laugh with joy when I see someone with HC in a 3k game. I think tying up that many of your points into one unit is foolish in low point games, as it gives you only power, no tactical flexibility: do you agree?

What is your ideal late game army? Mine used to be comms, archers, pikes and falsh, all in pops sufficient to do only up to the 1k damage limit (as you can tell, I played a long time ago ). Clearly, that doesn’t really work anymore, so in a camp game, what are you ultimately shooting for? Obviously, it’s a situational question, but are you more inclined to get HC or Knights? Will you stick with ballista or eventually upgrade to marks? Do lower level troops serve any purpose in your late game army, or is it master units all the way?

In duel games, how viable is it to take a quick attack approach (i.e. shunning economics for short term military gain) and marching your whole army up to their castle in the opening turns. Conceivably, by then their troops may be spread out across the map, giving you a clean shot at overwhelming their castle. It is, obviously, a very risky maneuver, and its success probably depends a lot on the map and the skill of the other player, but is it possible? I don’t have the balls to try it in game , but I’m curious as to your thoughts: have you done it, do you think it has viability? If so, when and where?

As for a drink to get you started, here’s a shot for ya. Is it possible to kill a pterodactyl with a flyswatter (for context, see the global warming thread in chit-chat)? You can use it in any way you see fit, and you can have the assistance of as many friends (with fly-swatters of their own) as you wish. The only proviso is that the flyswatter itself must be the ultimate cause of the dinosaur’s demise. We will assume the pterodactyl is on the ground asleep at the start (they probably didn’t sleep on the ground ordinarily, so we may also assume he had a late night, and this is where he eventually passed out). Also keep in mind that the pterodactyl can fly if you give him the chance (albeit, with difficulty, considering his massive hangover), and will likely try to eat you and your friends if he can reach you. If it is possible to kill the animal, what is the simplest way to do so involving the fewest number of people? For bonus points, what is the most obscenely complicated and creative way?

For those looking to really put some hair on their chests, you may also examine the moral and ethical repercussions of beating an animal to death (albeit, an imaginary one) with flyswatters. It was clearly an animal of disrepute (as it is lying in a drunken stupor after a night of sensual indulgence), but we’ve all made mistakes in our lives: who are we to pass judgment? On the other hand, if not us, than who will take responsibility when he repeats this affair and, in his drunken flight, crashes into your house, killing your mother-in-law? Is the fact that she had it coming sufficient grounds for leniency? Difficult questions, all. For an added challenge you may also devise the least painful way to complete the deed, should you deem it morally permissible to beat the thing to death.

Go now, talk amongst yourselves: discuss, discuss!

Well, as for killing the pterodactyl with a fly-swatter... I would bend the metal handle end back and forth multiple times until it snapped, giving me a sharp point to work with. Upon sneaking up to the slumbering behemoth, I would stab it as hard and violently as possible thru the eye and into the skull, hoping to deal a fast and fatal blow. If it didn`t work, I would be proper screwed

As for HCs in battles... for a 4.5-6k game, their importance is partially dictated by how much open space there is. More open space usually means more HC, because having alot invested in your HC means you need to be using them all every turn, or you will be inefficient, and inefficiency in a battle equals death. HC also last the longest against enemy onslaughts in trying to hold your line to protect your ranged. HC can be defeated by a stalling tactic in which one bogs them down with troops that have much less HP than the HC can deal in damage... but this can be hard to do. HC are simply good because they deal alot of damage for taking up little space, and they are difficult to kill off. On tighter maps, HC are not necessary as offensive tools... one might go with simply fodder troops, maces, and/or rams to protect ranged troops. A couple HC might be used in the mix because they can hold the line the best in critical locations.

HC in 1.5-3k battles is a harder topic... in 1.5-3k battles, it is more common for teams to be easily countered by a certain selection since there is little flexibility. In a 1.5k, a team with 1-2 HC and other support troops can be defeated by a team of spears blocking for arbs and balis and a com. On the other hand, a team with mostly mele but no HC would probably get beaten by a team with an HC and other troops because their mele wouldn''t be able to handle the HC.

My final thought is, though, that HC are definitely the strongest Medi mele unit to go with if you want something that is mobile and can deal a devastating hit to open holes. However, they are not the end-all. Most units can be strong or weak depending on how they are used. The way people use units is what defines the units. In a battle with Coopels I recently had on The Ruins, we both had similar teams made up of mostly mele, with most of the mele points being on HC. But HC alone do not fit the bill... we both had Rams, Knights, and other fodder units and ranged units that all played important roles.

Each unit has a somewhat defined role in my mind...
HC is the heavy hitter, and the most mobile heavy unit.
Knights are tactical hitters that are good against defensive units.
Macemen are decent defensive units that bite back and discourage people from hitting them but get chewed up by ranged.
Rams are defensive like Macemen, but must mainly be killed by mele units and not ranged ones. Very good for absorbing the first blows of a battle.
Spearmen are cheap for scouting, great fodder to absorb retal, and good for sticking in ur opponent`s way. You can also stick them in spots so that your opponent has to kill them, then attack from a bloody location. The blood can also be used to make distances longer so ur opponent cannot reach you.
Marks are good for killing most anything, from picking off fodder that`s in the way, to supplementing damage against mele, to shooting the opponent`s ranged. More mobile than Balis, but slightly less range.
Balis are good for shooting hi-pop stacks, killing enemy ranged, absorbing enemy ranged retal, and killing enemy Coms. They are less mobile than Marks tho, and less effective at killing low-pop stacks from a distance.
Arbs are good to have as a kind of backup wall to protect ur ranged from mele attack and still deal some damage. They are stronger than archers, but have less range obviously.
Archers are the ultimate fodder troop, but more expensive than spearmen. Good for absorbing mele or ranged retal, and can sit in the background and shoot when

...continued from previous...

they are not being used to absorb retal. Archers are also great for picking off those last few HP of damage to finish a pop off that you just barely missed killing.
Coms are indispensible for boosting both ranged and mele attack. It`s nice to have a spare so you can get extra damage on a turn with ur mele and not worry too much about him dieing. Unless you are knowingly sacrificing him and putting him in a dangerous position, pay special attention to his wellbeing and where your enemy`s ranged can reach him.

All the units I didn`t mention I don`t really use in battles, at least not 4.5-6k ones, because they either have too much HP to be used as fodder, or deal too little damage to be useful attackers, or don`t have a use that isn`t done better by a different unit.

Here I have kinda divulged nearly everything I consider about troops uses when choosing troops to take into a battle. Hopefully someone benefits from it

*_* Biodus *_*

P.S. Man, it`s been ages since I rambled like this

Last Edited : Wednesday, 26 September 2007 - 03:58

*marks bios post as golden value*

Thanks heaps Bio. I''ve been learning heaps off you.

Well I certainly appreciate the post, and believe me, it hardly qualifies as rambling .

Wow, your thoughts on how to kill the pterodactyl are brutally graphic, and quite effective ; I’m almost sorry I asked . Bonus points for you; if he’s blinded he’ll surely have a harder time trying to eat you . I don’t know if I’d have the guts to charge his head myself…frankly, if he’s going to get the mother-in-law out of the way I’d almost be inclined to let him go .

As Gaiya mentioned, your observations are very perceptive: I agree with all the points you brought up. People seem to be better now than they were, scenario battles probably helped change that, but back in 03 it seemed like the only way people got creative was in thinking of new ways to set up for an HC charge, and it got old pretty quickly . To that list though I’ll add my thoughts on some other units I feel are worth considering.

Squires- They serve the same function as rams, have less def and hit points, and cost slightly more, but have vastly increased offensive potential. They really shine against Macemen: lasting just as long as rams against them, but actually doing significant damage in the process. Buying a ram is buying a wall, so those points will only go to use in keeping more vulnerable points from being wasted: squires can perform this function nearly as well, and can actually earn their keep.

Now, HC will of course cut through squire regiments like butter, but what won’t they cut through ultimately? It is worth noting that a ram can survive a hit from a full HC unit, so in purely defensive situations, where you just need a wall, a ram may ultimately be more effective, but the squire’s usefulness against rock and ranged units is certainly worth considering. They are particularly helpful against ranged/spearmen set ups : in those situations 3 or 4 squires can easily be worth over twice their cost in material.

Pikemen- These have always been the poor neglected troops in battle, the ones that beg to be given a chance, but are turned down time and time again. The rival bonus is, imo, one of the strongest bonuses a troop can have: rather than getting a 1 in 5 chance of doing 20% extra damage, or max damage, pikes do 20% extra damage every turn against cavalry. Ultimately what we end up with is a unit that does 3/4 the damage of a macmen for less than half the cost: a great offensive value.

Of course, the reason people don’t use them is their abysmal defense: 2 units have more hp than 1 unit of macemen (for less cost) but considerably less def. This means they are easy pickings for ranged, and can’t survive 1 attack by an hc stack until it’s down to 7 units. As Bio brings up, a troop is only valuable if the points you invest in it will take out (or help take out) more points on the enemy team. Pikes seem like a good value, at 6 to 1 compared to an HC (as 6 pikes attacking simultaneously will easily dispatch even a full HC stack), and they are, but they must be carefully protected and employed at the right time to be effective. The timing you’ll have to figure out on your own , but they are worth a try if you’ve never considered employing them before: they can be very valuable if used correctly.

Falchioniers- If you can’t tell, there is a theme going on here , often times people only think about the high and low ends of the spectrum: they either want fodder or master level butt kicking, but there is a middle ground. Falsh have always impressed me as being very cheap for what they can accomplish. They are as effective as pikes against HC, but really shine against knights, where they can do a good amount of damage very quickly. More than this, however, is their effectiveness against fodder and ranged units: with their speed (they are faster than HC) and low cost, it is very easy to flank the enemy and wreak havoc in their ranks. While one HC is relatively easy to isolate and block, 4 falsh (for about the same cost) can overwhelm defenders and cause devastation. They are not powerhouses, and in confined spaces will tend to under-perform, but if you get a chance to employ them in open terrain they are a great substitute or supplement for HC.

Scouts- I still use these units as scouts, over spearmen, because the extra cost is well worth the extra movement speed. With that speed you will find your enemy more quickly, have a chance at escape, and have some use in leading cavalry charges. Spearmen are useful as nothing other than fodder, but scouts can find a number of creative applications. One unit is probably worth it over a spearmen for the same job.

These troops do shine in lower point contests, but can be effective in 4.5 and 6k games. However, they do have their limitations. In confined spaces quality is more important than quantity (let’s remember the lesson of the 300 ), so you must be careful where, how, and in what numbers you employ them. With that proviso, I would challenge players to take a second look at these units: I wouldn’t have gotten this far if they weren’t effective . It’s actually quite exhilarating fighting a 5k battle in which the other player has a lot of HC and you have none: not something I’d recommend for the faint of heart, or as (necessarily) the best strategy, but it’s boatloads of fun…like trying to fight off a giant monster trying to eat you . And yes, I have won against good players in those situations …not that I’ll claim it’s at all easy .

So, let’s be honest here, am I the only person that uses any of the above troops in battle? I haven’t seen anyone else do it, so I’m assuming that’s a yes

I rarely use HC, Mostly scouts with some mace for defense and Balistas with commanders.

Hc are extremely potent though, remember 4 can take out a 10 stack of scouts easy and i beleive 6 can wipe out a 10 stack of squires as well... not to menssion they can get crits pretty often

too expensive in a battle, I hit the HC with 5 or 6 stacks and it is gone in a turn or two while only losing 2 stacks of scouts.

crimson does have a point though, the trick is trying to get 5 or 6 stacks on an HC at once which, against a good player, should be very difficult if not impossible to do.

Yea, what BB666 said... good players do not usually leave their HC in spots where they can get hit by alot of stacks. Much of the time ur lucky if you can hit an HC with two stacks, because good players will commonly place their HC on hexes that can only be hit from one other hex. And you would never get 5-6 to hit a stack.

*_* Biodus *_*

Unless its one after the other on a blood spot....

well I never claimed to play anyone of skill! (hmm maybe that is why my rank is under 200 in battles?)

Speaking of skill, what''s the deal with Neb being so GD good!? The only people who''ve managed to beat him in his last 100 battle games are Cooples and Sage, and even then that was only twice each. Right now he''s on a 75 game winning streak! I''ve yet to have the chance to play him, but I wonder from those who have (or have a similarly good battle record) what the secrets are to lasting success in these games? Scenario battles are really just a matter of outplaying your opponent, so do the really high level players mostly play those games? If not, what set ups do they use to ensure they can win every time in a custom battle, and how many points do they usually play with?

wow, i was reading this and just now realized most of these postings are from 4 years ago, wow and still the same tactics with hc''s being used, now im not claiming to be a high up with battle though im in like top 10 i still dont have more than a win or 2 against the top 35 players becuase i havent played them much.

I personally play usually the 6k games and 4.5k games occastionly rarely going into the 3k,1.5k games(Though i do love them) and have played a total of 3 scenario games, i just love picking my own units and trying out different strategies.

Personally im a fodder guy there is just nothing like wasting a spear on an hc to hit him with your own, bam 4 hc differnce. and if you cant use fodder effectively you cant really win games

The 6 units i have to say i almost never use are squires, swordsmen, scouts, falcs or any siege unit. Now this is just in the higher games.


With the topic of the thread though, a mixed army is definitely needed playing the rps is esential to trying to take as little damage as possible while dealing the most damage.

there are 3 types i see: Power/Holemakers, Fodder/wall, and the late round units

Power: would be the Hc''s and the marks. They are the ones that are goign to let you use tactics to move in the rps and take advantage of that or open up lanes to hit your opponetts hc and then fill in the gaps with fodder/wall units

Fodder/wall: these are the spearmen, siege, archer units. Their use as is the name implies to make a wall between your oppoent and yourself and to take retal

The late round units: These would be the knights, mace and arbs.(also the pike and squires)
IN the late game knights are dominate even to hcs, bc they hit both on the attack and the retal where there is less units around to make a static line to fight in the kights dominate,
also bc more units can attack later in the game macemen get all the retals and so their value increases because usually the power units are mostly dead or diminished in numbers and you consistently push out more damage then you take.
I also say arbs bc in the late round when you might say be down to almost nothing but range arbs can run up hit your opponents range doing normal damage and then your range can take them out they are the ultimate late round fodder troop.
Pikes and squires are also the late rounders bc you can surround your oppenet usually with these units and utilize them also with range usually being all that is left squires benefit from this too.

If you dont have the 3 types (4th i guess would be range ) you arent going to win your battles consistenly. The diverse troops selctions will also help you in never truly being at a disadvantage when your oppenent selects one troop type(HCs)(rock/range).

There are some lacking in my analysis bc ithink in my 100 battles ive used falcs twice....

Now i hope this adds to the converstation. I am horrible at talking or putting things from my head to words. Could be why i failed english 280 twice.... and once in hs and a d in hs too.... all the same time getting straight As everywhere else

Now i dont know if anybody asked but i think that more lower games need to be played they help alot with zoc and rps tactics and teach how to use your smaller units to yoru advantage. My first i must have about 40 battles in the 3k or lower range

Knights, Mace and Falcs really shine in these smaller battles replacing The HC(as they just become overkilland you become outnumbered), and squires and pikes take the place of the KMF units.

I think my time with these battles have relly helped me in my use of small time flanking. Where you hit one side of your opp line with range and eliminate those units you can slip in and get 3 even 4 units on your oppents front line meaning yoru getting in more free shots

I think a lot of the reason nobody uses swordsmen/scouts is bc of the 1 point at the end and then the 8 points weird numbers and it feels like your wasting points if you dont use them. though 200 points is 1 scout 2 swordsmen wich can in lower games and overpower the 4 spears for same cost and get you 2 of the rps instead of 1

As for lasting success in battles, the success lies in a few different things...

First, you must of course have good tactical skills. If you do not know how to fight properly, ur going to lose You should have a fairly consistent style... personally, my consistency is in my approach. I start somewhat disorganized but fast on my first turn, then I organize my army on my second turn, and that might be a little slower depending on who moved first and what map we are on. Then I make a slow cautious approach to find my opponent and fight in an acceptable location. (by `fast` and `slow` I mean how far I move my troops forward). Especially in customs, you must know what locations are better for your team and better for your opponent`s team. Avoid fighting in locations that are in favor of your opponent`s team.

Second, in customs, you need to know how to build a balanced army that fits the map. If you are probably going to be fighting in a narrow pass, you need less mele and more ranged. On more open maps, you need more mele and less ranged. You also need to get a proper mix of fodder troops(spears, archers), protection troops(maces, rams), and power troops (knights, HC).

Once you get good at tactics and choosing teams that don`t have strong weaknesses in customs, you can increase how consistently you win. There seems to be a significant gap between the truly skilled players and the others... if you are one of the really good ones, pretty much only the other really good players pose any threat to you, and you can defeat endless amounts of the lower skilled players.

Good notes on the use of smaller troops in the smaller custom games, Mech :-D

*_* Biodus *_*