by longbowmen, do you mean Marksmen?
If so, Marks lose their special ability?

I have a suggestion - now that ballis and cats again some attack after moving:
It is absolutely right that outposts and towers increase ranged units range - after all that is why these buildings were built for defensive purposes.
What bothers me is that its is a standard tactic in this game to build towers when attacking. In real medieval warfare, how often were towers built on the battlefield? It simply wasn't done - there wasn't enough time.
It is a particular problem with catapults - basically, you set up your ranged units in towers in your castle (including catapults in the corner towers). The intention is to destroy any towers that your enemy builds.

The trouble is, the enemy arrives, builds a tower, moves their cat into it and fires at your tower, taking out from underneath you. With the new 50% rule, they need to do this twice, but it shouldn't be possible. Then they follow up with another attack from a cat in a tower and your damage cat sitting in the rubble is toast, without a single retal.

There are two solutions, which are not as bad as giving no attack to cats/ballis that have moved:
1) End the turn of any unit that moves into a building that has been built this turn. No attack. Think of it that the building was not finished until the end of turn, so although there is enough time to enter the building this turn, there is no time to do anything from the building.
2) When a seige weapon is in a building, and that hex of the building is attacked by a siege weapon, the seige weapon will retal against the attacking unit, if possible.

Hambone - second options sound reasonable but not the first one. Cause the first one will just mean the other way around. The defender being able to take the tower down without the attacker able to do anything.


Req - you know you shouldn't have talked about history. Now everything doesn't makes sense.

i like option number 3, you can't move into a building that was built that turn.

So just to clarify. If someone moves a ballista into range and attacks their opponents ballista it will be at 50% power, but the opponent will have the ranged defense and retal at 100%? Obviously it they move into a tower out of range this won't matter.

yes, attacking after moving will only do 50% damage, but retal is not effected by this. perhaps retal should also be 50% if they moved that turn.

as for option:3, I like the concept.
you cant move any troops into a building the turn it was built. maybe even make it so any building built is added with a "building" status that is automatic, and lasts 1 turn, during which time the building is kind of inactive. its still there and blocks movement, etc, but doesnt function, and cant be moved into.

in camps...it is still not letting you move and attack with a cat...

my thoughts on option 3...if you cant move into a building same turn... you will be forced to build before someone gets close to your castle... cuz if the person attacking your castle builds towers first(early in the turn)...then you build...next turn they move into their towers and flatten yours before you can move in them... option 3 doesn't seem to good an idea to me...

its becoming hard to keep up with these day to day rule changes...

@Disturbedyang:
"The defender being able to take the tower down without the attacker able to do anything."
That's the idea, a well entrenched cat in a tower able to interfere with or prevent the building of 1 building in its range. Remember if the attacker invests in Metal reinforcements it will take 2 cat hits to destroy his new tower.
Idea 2 means that cats/ballis get a 50% reduction in attack if they move, 100% reduction if they move into a newly built building. I quite like the gradual reduction in strength, depending on what you are doing.

@Req: Not being able to move into a building built this turn is OK in principle, but in combination with cat/ballis reduced attack after movement, the overall bad effect on attacking is too much, I think - it is already hard to attack a defended castle, what with the defence bonus from the castle, castle defence and the 50% reduction in cat/balli attack after movement. Attacking a castle should be hard, but not THAT hard - we want to encourage players out to fight mixed forces battles and attempt assaults on defended enemy castles, not skulk at home in their castles, waiting for a moment when they can nip in and take an undefended castle because a player hasn't logged on.

That said, we want to reward players that have thought carefully about defence and planned ahead, so doing something to reduce what players can do with new buildings is a good idea. If player has invested in a cat and a balli in each corner of their castle, it's always going to be tough to take :-)

@Req 2:
I reckon, leave retal of units unaltered
(but don't give units any bonuses [e.g. range] from a new building).
It's the surprise build, move in, knock down with no retal, then kick em while they're down in the rubble with no retal attack that is the thing we want to reduce. The defender has the choice of whether or not to attack a unit that has moved, and they can still choose what to attack with first (If they have moved ranged units up without an advance screen of melee units, maybe a scout to remove their retal, then hit them from your tower?)

Last Edited : Friday, 2 October 2009 - 13:05

but please don't change it till Monday

Last Edited : Friday, 2 October 2009 - 12:58

Forgot to say, surely battering rams would benefit from a run up (like Hvy Cav), not lose 50% damage for moving.
They are a bit crap anyway - I would always build two comms or save up and buy a cat by preference.

I will say the upgrades to the Arbs have made them MUCH more usefull.

Hambone - not being able to move into a newly built building is better than moving into the tower and not being able to do anything.....at least you don't get hit for nothing...

Hambone, battering rams dont get a "run-up". These big ones dont work that way. They are moved into position, and then used. Just look at the pic and you can see how these would be used. Not something that can done easily, or quickly.

As for moving into buildings same turn as they are built, I still dont think its good.

And seige machines were originally supposed to be banned from moving into any of those buildings. I just never got round to coding it in. Afterall, how can you move a pre-built catapult up a narrow flight of stairs to the top of a tower? Its crazy talk!

I agree totally Requiem about moving a seige machine into a tower. I think its a cheap shot anyway to throw up a tower and move in to get a quick shot on someone. I've got burned on this many times and makes me want to cry. :'(

Req - so can the cat and ballista move and attack in the same turn? Don't think it can...

my cats cant move and fire yet...havnt tried bali...

one other thing i was wondering...does a balista, now that seige can move and attack, still take less damage from a mark?

When attacking, a mark should beat up pretty good on a balista...If a bali takes 50% less damage from a mark...then its going to take like 4 stacks of marks to take out 1 stack of bali... that dont seem right

Last Edited : Friday, 2 October 2009 - 22:58

what about now?

i cant try it out now...i moved cats twice already

4 attacks from tiny arrows to take out huge pieces of wood, sounds right to me. besides with ballis new weaknesses they need to be able to survive something.

there are lots of things that don't make sense...like a scout, falc, or heavy cav fighting from an outpost! horsie and all!

Last Edited : Friday, 2 October 2009 - 23:13

i would say that ballista are more powerful now that they are able to move and attack at the same turn despite the 50%. They have a massive range advantage, range defense and even size bonus. So, the 50% doesn't hurt them as much especially that marksmen defenses have gone down that significantly. They are much cheaper after all.