So I’ve been looking over the new barb race, and eventually stumbled upon the barbarian chief, a scissor unit with ranged shielding and about as much power as a knight (slightly more move speed and less pt cost, but 4 less attack points)...and so I got to thinking, this is one beefy looking unit. The natural medi counter, macemen, is woefully underpowered against them. Of course, players are used to that with hc, but this unit costs less than half of what an hc does (without much loss in stats). And, of course, a good player is never going to let you surround their units with macemen. Which leads me to the second point: in order to whittle down these tough upper level stacks ranged units are almost a necessity. But this unit, in addition to its very good defense, has ranged shielding, making that option almost not worth the effort. In short chiefs seem imbalanced in barb-medi battles.

Now, people will say that the races aren’t very well balanced, and that it has been that way since demonics were introduced, but (even with my normal set up) I’ve been able to hold my own against demonic forces, and if I know I’m fighting demons beforehand medi can stand up very well. This unit seems to make any medi-barb matches almost not worth fighting: it seems like players will have no good counter to chiefs backed by longbows (to take out macemen). Is this the case in practicality? And, if so, what can be done. The goal is eventually to integrate all races into the game, so it’s not a problem that we can leave unsolved. Thoughts?

You are right. Shooting at them is foolish and wasteful.

Marksmen
Health : 66 Damage : 11 - 18
Count : 10 Exp : 32

Dmg Taken : 0.00 (0-0)
EXP Gained : 0
Troops Slain : 0

Barbarian Chief
Health : 120 Damage : 24 - 0
Count : 9.41 Exp : 43.3

Dmg Taken : 70.90 (52.8-86.4)
EXP Gained : 0
Troops Slain : 0

However, the fact that they cost more than half of an HC is quite a deal...if you have the HC. HC absolutely clobber them!

Heavy Cavalry
Health : 180 Damage : 36 - 57
Count : 8.35 Exp : 70

Dmg Taken : 297.10 (220.8-349.6)
EXP Gained : 216.5
Troops Slain : 1

Barbarian Chief
Health : 120 Damage : 24 - 38
Count : 4.87 Exp : 43.3

Dmg Taken : 615.60 (388.8-615.6)
EXP Gained : 70
Troops Slain : 5

EDIT: (this may be skewed as it calculated max damage to the cheifs...which is not always the case...so kills could be as little as 3, which is still in the HCs favor.)

Now, looking at their counter, macemen, who cost about half that of the chief, the numbers look pretty fair on kills.

Macemen
Health : 72 Damage : 14 - 21
Count : 7.03 Exp : 25

Dmg Taken : 213.90 (158.4-250.8)
EXP Gained : 43.3
Troops Slain : 2

Barbarian Chief
Health : 120 Damage : 24 - 38
Count : 8.21 Exp : 43.3

Dmg Taken : 215.40 (176.4-264.6)
EXP Gained : 50
Troops Slain : 1

Not sure where the imbalance is. If you take mass ranged with medi against barb, yes, you stand a chance of being doomed. However, a balanced selection should get the job done 50% of the time.

Neb

Last Edited : Thursday, 30 August 2007 - 16:11

PS - Demonic vs Medi has been proven to lose quite easily with the new changes that have been made. Flying, while useful, provides too short a range for the demonic, and they never actually even get to hit the medi troops with their big boys.

Ok, I see now...had they cost less than half hc it would be another matter, but you rightly correct me on the cost.

My point was that macemen are vulnerable to ranged, and if you take out those units the best you''re left with is ranged, and the ranged (as you showed) were ineffective. However, you rightly point out that hc dominate, and now that I realize cheifs are segnificantly more than half an hc in value there doesn''t seem to be an imblance.

As far as demonic v medi, you''re probably right, but the myth of demonic superioroty still exhists. Even back before the changes I used to be a fan of playing medi against demonic just to show that it could be done, and my set up has just gotten more effective in the new version. That''s not to say a good player on demonic will loose easily (if he chooses his troops well), just that medi can hold it''s own on most maps. But that''s another thread, thanks for clarifiying.

I have dominated evry match I have had that was medi vs. domi. Range took care of even the demigods for me.(I had all Arbelestas with a few marksmen custom.)